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Thread: Salvation--is it only for those to obey the commandments perfectly?

  1. #1
    Billyray
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    Default Salvation--is it only for those to obey the commandments perfectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    How many new translations are there exactly James? And haven't you noted difference between the translations using the older m****cripts than there is in the KJV?

    Here is one site that compares the KJV to the NIV.

    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/m-m.html

    Here is an example of a change from one to the other.

    Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
    Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."

    If I remember right, there is a discussion here somewhere discussing these very changes--was it you who used the NIV to defend against having to keep the commandments to be saved?

    ---I just found it. I was actually Billyray, using the NIV to discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV. Namely that one must keep the commandments to be saved. Here is the exchange:
    In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

    Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

    Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?
    You are changing the goal posts here Billyray--it went from keeping the commandments to perfect obedience. I say it is possible to keep the commandments while not perfect. In fact, I would argue that Christ addresses this specifically with the teaching of repentance.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  3. #3
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You are changing the goal posts here Billyray--it went from keeping the commandments to perfect obedience. I say it is possible to keep the commandments while not perfect. In fact, I would argue that Christ addresses this specifically with the teaching of repentance.
    Thanks for pointing out where you think that I misstated your position. That helps me better understand what you believe. I have listed below your position. If what I have written is incorrect please let me know.

    1. Salvation is not based on obedience to the commandments.
    2. Salvation is based on continuous repentance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Thanks for pointing out where you think that I misstated your position. That helps me better understand what you believe. I have listed below your position. If what I have written is incorrect please let me know.

    1. Salvation is not based on obedience to the commandments.
    2. Salvation is based on continuous repentance.
    You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

    1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
    2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
    3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
    4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  5. #5
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

    1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
    2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
    3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
    4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.
    We either repent or we don't.. There is no sin in the life of a Christian. Jesus died for all our sin.. We repent and turn from it we like Paul never sin again.. It is sin that lives in us that sins I have asked you to read that p***age before I guess you thought it was just anti-mormon trash.. It isn't is is the word of God through Paul the Apostle.

    Romans 7:17
    Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


    IHS jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    We either repent or we don't.. There is no sin in the life of a Christian. Jesus died for all our sin.. We repent and turn from it we like Paul never sin again.. It is sin that lives in us that sins I have asked you to read that p***age before I guess you thought it was just anti-mormon trash.. It isn't is is the word of God through Paul the Apostle.

    Romans 7:17
    Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


    IHS jim
    I think that there is a difference between the LDS faith and others---we see repentance as on-going rather than a one-time shot. We believe when we take the sacrament, we repent anew as well as regularly throughout our lives.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  7. #7
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

    1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
    2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
    3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
    4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.
    OK so let me see if I understand your position.

    1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
    2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    OK so let me see if I understand your position.

    1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
    2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation
    Nope, I think if you just cut and paste what I have written in four simple lines, then you would have it straight.

    This so much reminds me of the lawyers asking Christ--who is my neighbor? (In other words, they asked--"let me get this straight.")
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Nope, I think if you just cut and paste what I have written in four simple lines, then you would have it straight.

    This so much reminds me of the lawyers asking Christ--who is my neighbor? (In other words, they asked--"let me get this straight.")
    I thought that I had your position down but from your answer I guess I did not. Which one of the following (or both) are incorrect below?

    1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
    2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

  10. #10
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

    Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?
    We are imperfect beings, made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did. Or do you think God gives commandments and the charge to "be Ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" to mock us.

  11. #11
    Libby
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    I think we are made perfect in Jesus Christ, but not through obedience (because we could not be perfectly obedient, and Christ did that for us), but we are made perfect in him by putting our faith in him and what he did for us.

  12. #12
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    We are imperfect beings, made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did.
    Do you believe that Christ needed to repent for sins that He committed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I think we are made perfect in Jesus Christ, but not through obedience (because we could not be perfectly obedient, and Christ did that for us), but we are made perfect in him by putting our faith in him and what he did for us.
    I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

    In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #14
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you believe that Christ needed to repent for sins that He committed?
    No, I believe what Paul taught..."he learned obedience through the things that he suffered" and that "he became the author of our salvation".

  15. #15
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    No, I believe what Paul taught..."he learned obedience through the things that he suffered" and that "he became the author of our salvation".
    So you simply made an error when you said
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    We are imperfect beings, made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did.

  16. #16
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

    In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.
    But you never keep all of the commandments. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?

  17. #17
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

    In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.
    Have you ever seen the video of the father who runs triathlons with his son, who has muscular dystrophy? Very inspiring!! I believe that is the true relationship we have with Jesus Christ. He is running the triathlon that we could not run (because of our sin nature). When we completely put our faith in him, we are like the son being carried by his father and winning the race, through HIS efforts, not our own.

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    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Have you ever seen the video of the father who runs triathlons with his son, who has muscular dystrophy? Very inspiring!! I believe that is the true relationship we have with Jesus Christ. He is running the triathlon that we could not run (because of our sin nature). When we completely put our faith in him, we are like the son being carried by his father and winning the race, through HIS efforts, not our own.
    Yes, I agree that he does things we can not do for ourselves...but Christ asks us to take His yoke upon us---to do as He asks. While His burden was so much larger, He does ask us to obey Him. I do think we put in our own efforts...I have seen that really following Christ does take effort. While He makes the burden so much lighter, he still asks us to bear His yoke.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #20
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    No, I believe what Paul taught..."he learned obedience through the things that he suffered" and that "he became the author of our salvation".
    That is what it says and so that is what the Holy Spirit said.. So in our minds we believe that Jesus being God had things to learn? he didn't know that Conforming to the Father's will was obedience? Hey I even know that and I am far from being God.. Don't you think this p***age then needs more review?

    Could it be that Jesus wasn't just fully God but that He was fully man and in being so had to conform His humanity to the obedience that His divinity already possessed? So His humanity learned obedience even the obedience of all he suffered and in so doing became the author of How salvation would be gained? There is an answer to even your most puzzling questions. Those answers always center in Jesus.. We don't have to look any further than Him.. Remember the Bible does teach that Jesus is fully God and fully man.. There is no doubt that He is fully God. He is taught to be the eternal word of God incarnate (John 1:1-3, 14). He is called the Creator and head of the church (Colossians 1:15-20). Jesus can be seen as being fully man. He was conceived and born of a woman (Matthew 1:18-25). He thus had a human body. He experienced hunger, thirst and fatigue (Matt. 4:2; John 4:6; etc.). He suffered and died (John 19:34). He could be heard, seen and touched (1 John 1:1). He evidenced the emotional and intellectual qualities of a human being (see Matt. 26:37 and Mark 9:21). He is both fully man and fully God.. His humanity had to learn obedience and when it did he did become the author of our salvation.. IHS jim

  21. #21
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So you simply made an error when you said
    No...as usual you misunderstand.

  22. #22
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes, I agree that he does things we can not do for ourselves...but Christ asks us to take His yoke upon us---to do as He asks. While His burden was so much larger, He does ask us to obey Him. I do think we put in our own efforts...I have seen that really following Christ does take effort. While He makes the burden so much lighter, he still asks us to bear His yoke.
    I agree that obedience is important, mainly, so that we are not disrespecting the cross, by continuing to lay sin at the feet of Jesus...and really we can only do that (obey), because of the Christ in us. But, our salvation has already been purchased (through Christ's Atonement) and we cannot really add to that. I believe it is complete and our works cannot/do not add to it. I think it's human nature to what to add to it, but really we cannot, which is why we needed Jesus, to begin with.

  23. #23
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    No...as usual you misunderstand.
    Here is your post.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix;157341[B
    ]We are imperfect beings[/B], made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did. . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I agree that obedience is important, mainly, so that we are not disrespecting the cross, by continuing to lay sin at the feet of Jesus...and really we can only do that (obey), because of the Christ in us. But, our salvation has already been purchased (through Christ's Atonement) and we cannot really add to that. I believe it is complete and our works cannot/do not add to it. I think it's human nature to what to add to it, but really we cannot, which is why we needed Jesus, to begin with.
    Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)
    Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

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