Salvation--is it only for those to obey the commandments perfectly?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

Well, as the three are One (Godhead)---then even if the Holy Ghost is there...there is no separation from God...according to you. His Spirit is present.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Well, as the three are One (Godhead)---then even if the Holy Ghost is there...there is no separation from God...according to you. His Spirit is present.

Mormonism teaches polytheism and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods (not to mention all of the other mormon gods like idols and unrighteous judges). In the Telestial Kingdom--which BigJ is calling salvation--there is eternal separation from God the Father. I would certainly like to know where eternal separation from God the Father is called salvation. Any verses to back you up on this one?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mormonism teaches polytheism and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods (not to mention all of the other mormon gods like idols and unrighteous judges). In the Telestial Kingdom--which BigJ is calling salvation--there is eternal separation from God the Father. I would certainly like to know where eternal separation from God the Father is called salvation. Any verses to back you up on this one?

Actually, what we preach is that all three are part of the Godhead. Who are other Mormon gods?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, what we preach is that all three are part of the Godhead. Who are other Mormon gods?

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

No unclean thing can enter into...Got Bible, Billy?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

No unclean thing can enter into...Got Bible, Billy?

PaPa note sure how this addresses what BigJ said about mormon salvation. Could you take another look at the dialogue and give us some insight from the lds point of view why you guys believe that salvation includes those who go to the telestial kingdom which means that for these guys salvation = eternal separation from God the Father. Does the Bible teach that salvation = eternal separation from God the Father?

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

She asked you to name them...do it, if you can.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

She asked you to name them...do it, if you can.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

7. Abraham
8. Isaac
9. Jacob
10. 12 Apostles.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

No unclean thing can enter into...Got Bible, Billy?

We are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ (not through our works).

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

We are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ (not through our works).

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus

Why Libby, finally, you hit the nail on the head, better stop now while you're ahead. lol

[Libby]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Why Libby, finally, you hit the nail on the head, better stop now while you're ahead. lol

RFH, are you trying to tell me to "go away"? lol

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Libby

We are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ (not through our works).

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus

As I said at my mother's funeral...

"In the coming day, I shall feel the nail prints in his hands and in his feet and I shall wet his feet with my tears. But I will not know better then than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way".

Do you know who said this...It is a quote from his final address 5 days before he died?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

As I said at my mother's funeral...

"In the coming day, I shall feel the nail prints in his hands and in his feet and I shall wet his feet with my tears. But I will not know better then than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way".

Do you know who said this...It is a quote from his final address 5 days before he died?

I've heard that before, but couldn't remember who said it. Bruce R. McConkie.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

Interesting Julie, Just what are we saved from? The Telestial kingdom? There Terrestrial Kingdom? The lower to divisions of the Celestial kingdom? Maybe outer darkness? We might be able to find some common ground as to what it means to be saved if we could figure out what the LDS teach that we are saved from.. Christian believe we are saved from the second death described in the Bible as the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

Well a half truth is still a lie.
LDSinc. Should quote Holy Bible Scripture, before trying to convince Christians there is more to Salvation.
BigJulie, I call you out! Where in the Holy Bible does it imply we can obtain (Salvations).
The Holy Bible only tells us of (Salvation).
Once again, lying for the LDSinc. lord does you no good.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

Could anyone please relate to us what gods the LDS worship, pray to--or feel they are subject to--other than the Godhead(God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost)?

Could anyone tell us if they thought Paul was polytheistic?

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god

[alanmolstad]

The moment a religion attempts to tell you there actually are other gods.....( not just things that we call 'a god" like a TV show actor or a some other created person or thing) you are dealing with a false religion.....a CULT.


now sometimes the person trapped inside a CULT will try to defend their false religion, by saying "Although there are many gods, we only worship the Father" ...But they are still worshiping a false god anyway.

It does not matter they named their false god "Father"...or "Jesus" or "holy spirit"...etc.etc...
All you have to know is that they are lost, and are dead in their sins.....and unless they get out of that CULT they face eternal ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The moment a religion attempts to tell you there actually are other gods.....( not just things that we call 'a god" like a TV show actor or a some other created person or thing) you are dealing with a false religion.....a CULT.

So--you believe Paul preached a false religion?

2 Corinthians 4:4--King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

How about Christ?

John 10:34-36---King James Version (KJV)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The OT writers?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

[hogan60]

if salvation is based on our obedience, then Christ died for nothing! Who Needs Him if we can do it ourselves?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

if salvation is based on our obedience, then Christ died for nothing! Who Needs Him if we can do it ourselves?

Hi Hogan--thanks for joining the discussion, we need more to join in here and discuss the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As the scriptures testify to--obedience is required for His grace unto life:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

IOW--the scriptures are replete when testifying of the connection between our obedience and God's grace unto life--and we might want to get over that, if it seems a negative to us.

Personally, Hogan--I don't know where people get the idea God gives His salvational grace to anyone but those who obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9-King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Where do we find any doctrine in the Biblical NT which has man inheriting eternal lif without obedience to Christ--and walking in His light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And how do we walk in His light, in the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And to obey His commandments:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind--is that they will enter into heaven independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

As the scriptures testify to--if we are to saved--we will be saved by God's grace--and that grace unto life--as a personal reception-- goes to them which obey Him.

God's grace unto life--as a possibility--was made available to all men--through His Atonement, as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

Just as in a university--an education is made available to all men--as a possibility.

To obtain the diploma--one must obey the criteria of the college.

Through the Atonement--all are offered eternal life--as a possibility. To obtain His grace unto life--as a PERSONAL RECEPTION--we must walk in His light--and do His work He has given us to do--as the above scriptures testify to--there is no back door to eternal life.

So--how do you fit the above scriptures into your theology?

[alanmolstad]

it must be nice to just keep posting the same stuff over and over again regardless of whom you are talking with or what topic you are talking about....

saves time....saves thinking of new stuff...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

it must be nice to just keep posting the same stuff over and over again regardless of whom you are talking with or what topic you are talking about....

saves time....saves thinking of new stuff...

The Bible doesn't contain any new stuff for us. It's the "same stuff" over and over.

Care to address the above scriptures--or the points of concern?

[alanmolstad]

this is the point of the story...


When Mormons try to quote the story they always make sure to stop quoting the story before the story ends.
They do this because the first part of ther story supports their views, but the 2nd part of the story points totally against their views.

The first part of the story has the man ask Jesus what to do to have life?
Jesus answers by listing the commandments.

This is where the Mormons stop quoting the story.
To the Mormon, this part of the story agrees with their concept of 'works".
They stop quoting the story at this point because they simply dont know what to do with the next part of the story.


But if you keep quoting the story, what you see Jesus say totally undercuts what Jesus had said in the first part of his answer to the man.

The man responds to Jesus and tells Jesus that he has always kept the commandments.
This means that the man has done the very thing Jesus had pointed to that brings life.

Jesus does not disagree with the man's claim to have always kept the commandments.

But then Jesus pulls the rug out of the whole idea that 'works' count to salvation.

Jesus tells the man that even after keeping all the listed commandments, he still lacked life.

Then Jesus tells the man that he has to 'follow me" .


So once again it all comes down to people following Jesus.....to believe in him....to have faith.

Not by works.....


For we are saved only by grace though FAITH, and Not By Works!


Not by faith

Not by works

Not by faith and works

Not by works and faith.


But only by grace though faith, and not by works at all.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this is the point of the story...

When Mormons try to quote the story they always make sure to stop quoting the story before the story ends.

The story never ends--the Biblical text is an eternal truth.

So--care to address the scriptures?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The story never ends--the Biblical text is an eternal truth.

So--care to address the scriptures?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Hi DB,

Just a comment, the judgments on the house of God are Fatherly chastisements and are different from
God's judgment on the world and the condemnation that goes with it.

"But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord that we may not be condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:32