Sandra Tanner Interview: "I came to Jesus through the Bible...and the Book of Mormon"

[Libby]

You have to understand that I don't really agree with Kate's religion. I agree with her on feminist principles, only. Equality for women, in whatever area of life they are pursuing it.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Were YOU born a liar?

No, and I have not cheated on my wife too....
There are many things that separate old Joe from moral people. For in Old Joe's case, he seems to me to have had a hard time telling the truth.....as well as a hard time not chasing after younger and younger skirts.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, did Matthew give both of those? I haven't referenced it.

Mark 8:19 " And do you not remember, when I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces you picked up?" They said to Him, "Twelve." "When I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of broken pieces did you pick up?" And they said to Him, "Seven."…

jesus was known to feed people...one time he had 5 loaves at the start....and another different time he fed people and had 7 loaves at the start...

And these are only the recorded two times he fed people with a great likelihood that Jesus did this type of feeding a few more times too that are not recorded for us.


So there is no contradiction here....and this can not be used as an excuse for old Joe's ever-changing story...LOL

[alanmolstad]

Libby...I will tell you a story about something that is related to the way some Mormons attempt to point to conflicts in the Bible as a means to make Joe's lies not look so bad.


A few years ago i was on jury duty.
It was a trial of a guy in the Airforce that got drunk and went down the street one day and attacked a bunch of different people.

It was an open and shut case....there were all kinds of witnesses to that attacks...The guy was even trouble for the cops later and was p***ed out in the hospital in photos of that night taken by the police.


I thought as we went into the jury room that "This will not take long"
The guy was clearly guilty and so I was ready to vote "GUILTY" and head home.
But I was wrong...

It turns out that once in the Jury room I discovered that there was this one lady on the jury that simply was not going to vote "guilty" regardless.
She felt that because the man was nice looking that he should be given a "break"

So we argued with her for 3 hours with nothing gained.

Then when she was pressed by the Jury foreman, she said that the witnesses had told different stroies....and were giving conflicting stories about what happend.

And this was true at times.

One witness said that the Air force guy punched a guy in the face with his Left hand, but a different person said it was with his right hand.
The defense tried to make a big deal out of this difference.
The Airforce guy also had changed his story too.
After his arrest the cops took him in and questioned him and they showed a recording of what his answers were, and he talked about all the drinks he had that night, and how he was in a bad mood because of stuff, and had no idea who he attacked because they were just there when he wanted to start hitting people.

Later during the trial he told a totally different story....that he "Only had one beer" and that different people on the street kept getting into fights with him for no reason when he just wanted to go home.

The lady defended this change of story by pointing out how the story of Jesus feeding the people was changed in the Bible too.


THAT.....That was the moment I had to step in and I started to talk to the lady.

I told the lady that whenever two or more people see something unusual, like a car crash, or a street fight, or something that they have never seen before and dont really understand, that its normal to hear later slightly different accounts of the same event.

In fact i told the lady that the slightly different accounts kinda supports that something actually did happen, and that the witnesses have not just all gotten together in a conspiracy and told the same invented story word-for-word.

BUT, this is different than ONE GUY telling an ever-changing story as one version is torn down and gets replaced by different versions in an effort to hide the truth.

When ONE guy tells a different story it means that he is just making stuff up.



And.....I told the lady that a closer reading on the matter of the accounts of Jesus feeding the people and the different times this is talked about in the Bible,. shows us that there is no contradiction, but that at times in the whole text we do see slightly different accounts of the very same event.( "This is my Son" compared to "You are my Son", etc)


That is different than one guy running around changing his story all the time to make it more believable......



the lady saw this , and we were all able to vote "GUILTY"

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No, and I have not cheated on my wife too....

So you don't believe the doctrine of inherited depravity? You believe that in your early years, you weren't a sinner yet? It wasn't until later in life that you "became" a sinner?

Can you prove that "Joe" was telling lies at an earlier age than you?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Libby

The commentary I have found says that Matt 14 and 15 are actually two different occasions on which Jesus performed this same miracle.

Yes, Alan apparently did a good *** of explaining it. I am grateful to him for that.

Your example, regarding Paul, on the road to Damascus, is really not comparable to Joseph's first vision.

You need to read "The accounts of Joseph Smith's First Vision: A Harmony" so you can see that mentioning one thing in one account, and omitting the mention of it another account, doesn't mean that the accounts contradict each other. Just like with Paul's accounts.


P.S.--I was mistaken about the reason Cram's moderator listed for deleting my post about the Matthew account "discrepancy." I checked my archived copy, and it says their stated reason was "off topic."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

So you don't believe the doctrine of inherited depravity?

I only inherited by good looks from my mom's side and wonderful blonde hair from Dad's....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

You believe that in your early years, you weren't a sinner yet?

I never claim to be better than any other person....

Im forgiven, but not better....Im sure others, some who are even Mormon, lead more moral and sin-free lives.
If I can boast in anything, it's that I can boast in what Jesus had made out of me.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It wasn't until later in life that you "became" a sinner?

If you are asking me, "Alan can you remember when you first sinned?".....I dont have a clue.....who remembers stuff like that?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Can you prove that "Joe" was telling lies at an earlier age than you?

I seem to remember a quotation by Joe's mom about his telling wild stories.....
We do see the whole Treasure hunter -scam he was running that he was a good liar by what?...his 20s?....

Im not really sure how old he was when someone finally took him to court for that scam?....but I think we get a good idea at the type of born-liar that old Joe seems to have been at a young age.....

a skill that he honed to be able to tell tall tales about angels etc...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If you are asking me, "Alan can you remember when you first sinned?".....I dont have a clue.....who remembers stuff like that?

one thing not lost on me?....that fact that when you list The Mormon founder as a "Born Liar" you see the Mormons try to come back with the excuse, "But you are no better Alan"

>>>>>>>>>wonderful religion you guys got there ....

[Libby]

I think he just means that no one is a "born liar". One becomes that way.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

one thing not lost on me?....that fact that when you list The Mormon founder as a "Born Liar" you see the Mormons try to come back with the excuse, "But you are no better Alan"

>>>>>>>>>wonderful religion you guys got there ....

No, it's a wonderful (not) religion that YOU have there, where you yourself know that you were born, you know that you have lied (most humans have), yet you feel no "pot and kettle" hypocrisy by accusing others of being a born liar.

In fact, if you believe as the typical anti-LDS Evangelical does that just getting angry at someone makes you a murderer, then you're not just a born liar: You're a born murderer. You don't feel any "cognitive dissonance" as you unilaterally throw accusations at Joseph Smith? Are you better than him, really? I want to see you claim to be better than others. That will put the icing on the hypocrisy cake.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think he just means that no one is a "born liar". One becomes that way.

You are perceptive as usual.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yes, Alan apparently did a good *** of explaining it. I am grateful to him for that.



You need to read "The accounts of Joseph Smith's First Vision: A Harmony" so you can see that mentioning one thing in one account, and omitting the mention of it another account, doesn't mean that the accounts contradict each other. Just like with Paul's accounts.


P.S.--I was mistaken about the reason Cram's moderator listed for deleting my post about the Matthew account "discrepancy." I checked my archived copy, and it says their stated reason was "off topic."

I'm fairly sure I have read the LDS explanations of all of the different versions of the first vision....but, it's been awhile. I don't remember being satisfied with it.

CARM's ship is a bit too uptight for my taste. I've gone over there a few times, recently, and even posted a little, but the whole board is just so "angry" and divided. Not much good going on there, IMO.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mark 8:19 " And do you not remember, when I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces you picked up?" They said to Him, "Twelve." "When I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of broken pieces did you pick up?" And they said to Him, "Seven."…

jesus was known to feed people...one time he had 5 loaves at the start....and another different time he fed people and had 7 loaves at the start...

And these are only the recorded two times he fed people with a great likelihood that Jesus did this type of feeding a few more times too that are not recorded for us.


So there is no contradiction here....and this can not be used as an excuse for old Joe's ever-changing story...LOL

Thanks, Alan. I hadn't even had time to look at the scriptures, which I was going to do this evening.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

No, it's a wonderful (not) religion that YOU have there, where you yourself know that you were born, you know that you have lied .

You might want to review the forum rules......

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks, Alan. I hadn't even had time to look at the scriptures, which I was going to do this evening.

Im just so busy lately...no time to chime-in and help you out.....
I can post a few sentences in the morning as I grab an egg to go...
and at night I simply got just time enough to check to see whats new before I got to get going on the house projects that need doing by the weekend.

[Libby]

Oh sure, we all have things we need to take care of. I usually do this in the evenings, after dinner and all that.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

No, it's a wonderful (not) religion that YOU have there, where you yourself know that you were born, you know that you have lied (most humans have), yet you feel no "pot and kettle" hypocrisy by accusing others of being a born liar.

In fact, if you believe as the typical anti-LDS Evangelical does that just getting angry at someone makes you a murderer, then you're not just a born liar: You're a born murderer. You don't feel any "cognitive dissonance" as you unilaterally throw accusations at Joseph Smith? Are you better than him, really? I want to see you claim to be better than others. That will put the icing on the hypocrisy cake.

I think we should try very hard not to make our posts personal. Public figures, like Joseph Smith, are always fair game...and he is the central figure in Mormonism. We have all lied, that's fairly certain, but we haven't all started a religion on, what some/many (?) people believe to be, untruths.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think we should try very hard not to make our posts personal. Public figures, like Joseph Smith, are always fair game...and he is the central figure in Mormonism. We have all lied, that's fairly certain, but we haven't all started a religion on, what some/many (?) people believe to be, untruths.

Okay, I wont type about you, but everyone can type about me, why? Because ii is always about me.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

How about 2 different, contradictory versions of a story? If it's true and inspired and all, there shouldn't be ANY "errata" right? ALL stories should agree 100%.

Here's one for you to explain for me (When I posted it on Carm, it got me banned once):


Matt. 14:

...took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the mul***ude. 20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. 21 And they that had eaten were aboutfive thousand men, beside women and children.

Matt. 15:

:And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the mul***ude. 37 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full. 38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.

How silly!

You ***ume that the Disciples could not count to seven. These ate TWO DISTINCT EVENTS, and there is sufficient differing details in the entire p***age to indicate that. Especially telling is the difference between 4000 men and 5000 men

Per usual, toy Mormons want to take something superficial, ignore the context of the entire event, and then make an issue of a non-issue. Of course, I will not convince you of your error because you are programmed to see it as a contradiction.

In the same manner as you are programmed yo believe in a non-existent language, a non-existent "lost tribe", a non existent submarine voyage of 8000+ nautical miles, etc tou also believe in the existence of neas, sheums, curelomons cummons and perhaps unicorns.

You will NEVER be able to promote Mormonism by bashing the Bible, as you guys consider it one of your 5 "Standard Works"--(or something similar) because you actually bash a fundamental book for yourselves.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by John T

How silly!

It's silly to ask a question?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You might want to review the forum rules......

If you are willing to state that you have never lied, then I would like your autograph.

[alanmolstad]

I think you should reacquaint yourself to the rules.....and that is no lie....