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Thread: Sandra Tanner Interview: "I came to Jesus through the Bible...and the Book of Mormon"

  1. #26
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    She is right the BoM teaches the perfect definition of who and what God is...the bad idea is when no-mos mock teaching in the BoM they (we...me..LDS) believe.
    A lot of critics have never read the Book of Mormon. They only know (believe) that Joseph Smith (or someone) made it up.

    As Sandra pointed out, the book was written in the early stages of Joseph's quest and it sounds very 19th Century protestant. That, and the long p***ages of Isaiah, make for a very "biblical sounding" book.

  2. #27
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    JEHOVAH...Jesus Christ.
    So the people of the OT had a completely different God that they worshipped than those under the NT?

  3. #28
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    Billy...why read and learn the entire book.
    I have read the Book of Mormon multiple times and I taught investigators about the Book of Mormon while on my mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    When you quote out of context and with no understand of all it teaches, you do yourself no service. Take a look at Mosiah 5: 7, as well as all the book of John, and John 17 for your central focus.
    "38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"

    Mormonism teaches many gods. So in verse 38 Zeezrom asks if the Son of God is THE very Eternal Father. So is it true according to the Book of Mormon that the Son of God is THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER?

  4. #29
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    She is right the BoM teaches the perfect definition of who and what God is...the bad idea is when no-mos mock teaching in the BoM they (we...me..LDS) believe.
    Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

    Do you believe this verse which says that God "is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity."?

  5. #30
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    She is right the BoM teaches the perfect definition of who and what God is...the bad idea is when no-mos mock teaching in the BoM they (we...me..LDS) believe.
    2 Nephi 11:7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

    "For if there be no Christ there be no God"

    Do you believe that if Christ did not exist then there would be NO God?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    "38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"

    But it asks if the Son of God is THE very Eternal Father. So is it true according to the Book of Mormon that the Son of God is THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER?
    Yes, it is true in a way. After all, scripture says that disciples of Christ who give their lives to Him, become His children by adoption. And since Jesus created the earth and the "heavens" and all "things" in them, He could be called the father of heaven and earth, in a way.

    But that doesn't mean that Christ doesn't have a Father who is greater, who creates spirits, and who is in charge of the universe. Some of the creating that God does, He does through Christ. Christ, as the Father's Son, is destined to inherit all that His Father has.

  7. #32
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    Billy...why read and learn the entire book. When you quote out of context and with no understand of all it teaches, you do yourself no service.
    Thanks for the encouragement--I just broke out my lds scriptures that I used on my mission which includes written notes along along with blue and red colored highlights. But since becoming a Christian I have written copious notes, yellow highlights, and included tabs linked to specific subjects. Here is a sample which includes old and new notes that I have taken. You can tell the old written notes as distinguished from the new notes because my handwriting was a bit better when I was younger.

    IMG_3453.jpg

    I have made lots of notes and thus have lots to discuss about the Book of Mormon.

  8. #33
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Yes, it is true in a way. After all, scripture says that disciples of Christ who give their lives to Him, become His children by adoption. And since Jesus created the earth and the "heavens" and all "things" in them, He could be called the father of heaven and earth, in a way.
    So your Father in Heaven is Jesus?

  9. #34
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Thanks for the encouragement--I just broke out my lds scriptures that I used on my mission which includes written notes along along with blue and red colored highlights. But since becoming a Christian I have written copious notes, yellow highlights, and included tabs linked to specific subjects. Here is a sample which includes old and new notes that I have taken. You can tell the old written notes as distinguished from the new notes because my handwriting was a bit better when I was younger.

    IMG_3453.jpg

    I have made lots of notes and thus have lots to discuss about the Book of Mormon.
    Wow, nice. Is that an old triple...or a quad?

  10. #35
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Wow, nice. Is that an old triple...or a quad?
    The old triple combination. It is interesting seeing the notes that I made way back when and the beliefs that I truly believed at the time.

  11. #36
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The old triple combination. It is interesting seeing the notes that I made way back when and the beliefs that I truly believed at the time.
    Yes, it is. Interesting, too, how you have color coded them. Where did you serve your mission, Billy?

    I have a quad that I bought right after I joined the church, in 2001. I just got it out...I really haven't read in it for about five years. My original "study" Book of Mormon was the blue give away that I got from the missionaries.. I have tons of highlighting in that one. Quite a bit in my "quad", as well.

  12. #37
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, it is. Interesting, too, how you have color coded them. Where did you serve your mission, Billy?

    I have a quad that I bought right after I joined the church, in 2001. I just got it out...I really haven't read in it for about five years. My original "study" Book of Mormon was the blue give away that I got from the missionaries.. I have tons of highlighting in that one. Quite a bit in my "quad", as well.
    I served in England in the 1980's--

    BTW I think you brought it up in this thread that Joseph's belief about God evolved over time. This is absolutely true. The lds of God today--which was Joseph's later view of God--is not the same as taught in the Book of Mormon. Grant Palmer has a YouTube video about this which can be seen at the following link

    Grant Palmer - Joseph Smith's Changing View of God
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCp4...Bmc0c0UUlyzIaA
    Last edited by Billyray; 05-22-2014 at 11:56 PM.

  13. #38
    Libby
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    England, wow, lucky you. I have an LDS cousin who served his mission in England, as well, probably at, approximately, the same time. He is about ten or twelve years younger than me. Still a very active Mormon..with seven children. He moved to Utah to be at the center of things.

    Thanks for the link. I'll have a look. I have heard and read about Joseph's changing theology, in several different places. I'm also familiar with Grant Palmer.

  14. #39
    Libby
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    I just noticed that there is a Phoenix and The Pheonix on the board. I thought you two were one in the same. Yikes. Sorry! Just now noticed that.

  15. #40
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post

    Thanks for the link. I'll have a look. I have heard and read about Joseph's changing theology, in several different places. I'm also familiar with Grant Palmer.
    I have watched just part of it so far. It is fairly long so I will probable watch it in different sittings. I studied this subject several years back and as I recall the best fit for the god of the Book of Mormon is modalism. But it has been a while since I looked this over so I will watch what Grant has to say to refresh my memory a bit on this subject and see if he comes to the same conclusion.


    Modalism
    In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

  16. #41
    Libby
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    Oh wow, this is interesting! He is talking about three of the versions of the First Vision that came across the plains with the Saints..and what Joseph Fielding Smith did to one of those versions. I have never heard this before. Very interesting!

    Yes, it's long! I will probably watch in segments, as well.

  17. #42
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Modalism
    In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism
    Yes, I know about modalism. One God with three personalities (rather than actual persons). That's probably accurate.

  18. #43
    Libby
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    I watched that whole video, last night. That was very interesting. I liked how he tied Joseph's beliefs, at the time, with each of the changing "visions". His vision changed right along with his changing beliefs about the nature of God.

  19. #44
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    A lot of critics have never read the Book of Mormon. They only know (believe) that Joseph Smith (or someone) made it up.

    As Sandra pointed out, the book was written in the early stages of Joseph's quest and it sounds very 19th Century protestant. That, and the long p***ages of Isaiah, make for a very "biblical sounding" book.
    Very true, they only know verses that are taken from the writings of other no-mos, out of context and misused for the application. If I were going to spend countless hours everyday criticizes it, I would want to at least have read it and understand the context in which the verse is used.

    If Joseph did just "make it up", he had an understanding of Biblical doctrine that would make any P.h.d, feel like they wasted 200,000 on their education, knowing a guy with Joseph's education could make up something like 2 Nephi 9-10, where Jacob gave a perfect understanding of the Atonement and "why" the Atonement. Mosiah 1-5...greatest sermon since the Sermon on the Mount. Just to name two of my head...I would do more but two of my grandbabies just got here! Got to go help Nanny watch them.

  20. #45
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    England, wow, lucky you. I have an LDS cousin who served his mission in England, as well, probably at, approximately, the same time. He is about ten or twelve years younger than me. Still a very active Mormon..with seven children. He moved to Utah to be at the center of things.

    Thanks for the link. I'll have a look. I have heard and read about Joseph's changing theology, in several different places. I'm also familiar with Grant Palmer.
    I see it this way...been a member for 36 years, so I have been a missionary for 36 years in many countries and 33 States... I'm not done yet. I noticed that Billy was in England at the same time I visited there from (what was then) West Germany. I loved it there!

  21. #46
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I just noticed that there is a Phoenix and The Pheonix on the board. I thought you two were one in the same. Yikes. Sorry! Just now noticed that.
    someone needs to get a different name...this situation sounds like an accident waiting to happen....

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    Very true, they only know verses that are taken from the writings of other no-mos, out of context and misused for the application. If I were going to spend countless hours everyday criticizes it, I would want to at least have read it and understand the context in which the verse is used.

    If Joseph did just "make it up", he had an understanding of Biblical doctrine that would make any P.h.d, feel like they wasted 200,000 on their education, knowing a guy with Joseph's education could make up something like 2 Nephi 9-10, where Jacob gave a perfect understanding of the Atonement and "why" the Atonement. Mosiah 1-5...greatest sermon since the Sermon on the Mount. Just to name two of my head...I would do more but two of my grandbabies just got here! Got to go help Nanny watch them.
    First off, Joe Smith had the help of Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery as he was writing the BoM, not translating it from Reformed Egyptian, but using the Spaulding m****cript...written by a Christian who was well educated. And who needs a Ph.D. to know that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ? Do you seriously think one has to be super-educated to know this:

    Acts 16: 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


    Here's your wonderful verses:

    9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

    10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

    A bunch of worthless, senseless blather that is meaningless - all men do not come "unto God," and those that don't are judged already.


    Hasn't any Christian here set you straight?
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  23. #48
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    I see it this way...been a member for 36 years, so I have been a missionary for 36 years in many countries and 33 States... I'm not done yet. I noticed that Billy was in England at the same time I visited there from (what was then) West Germany. I loved it there!
    Well, you know the saying. Every member a missionary.

    I visited England in 2000....absolutely loved it! Would love to go back someday.

  24. #49
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Yes, that is interesting. If John and Sandra are correct, then I don't see how the Book of Mormon can be of satanic origin as certain anti-bom people claim.
    It aint the fact the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, it is how it is used to lure innocents to their eternal ****ation.
    **** Joseph Smith jr. To Hell for that!

  25. #50
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    Very true, they only know verses that are taken from the writings of other no-mos, out of context and misused for the application. If I were going to spend countless hours everyday criticizes it, I would want to at least have read it and understand the context in which the verse is used.
    I think what you say is true for a lot of critics of the Mormon church--but not all critics. There are some who are well versed in the Mormon religion. I think LDS fall into the trap that they ***ume that they are right and when there is criticism it must be pulled out of context or misquoted. I was exactly the same way when I was LDS. I was a life long mormon and served a full time mission but went inactive not long after my mission--however I still believed what Mormonism taught. A friend gave my wife (who was an active LDS member at time) an "anti-Mormon" book and since I knew more about the church I told her to give it to me so I could show her that it was wrong. At the time I "knew that the LDS church was the only true church" and I ***umed that I could easily disprove what was written in the book and show her that the quotes were pulled out of context or simply misquoted. As I went about trying to prove that the book was false I ended up proving that it was true for the most part--which then started me on a path of ongoing in depth study that lead me to the Biblical Christ/Christianity. You would be wise to at least consider what the criticisms are with an open mind and then check the sources etc. Once you know the truth then you will then need to make a decision of whether to accept the many problems with Mormonism and stay OR do what I did and leave it for Christianity. There are many LDS who see all of the problems but they like the members and community and end up staying.

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