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Thread: What's the moral difference?

  1. #1
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Question What's the moral difference?

    1.) An armed robber approaches you. He puts his gun to your head and says he wants your money. If you give it to him, he'll let you live. If you don't, he'll shoot you.

    2.) God approaches you. He claims to be all powerful and wants you to place all of your trust in him. If you do that, then when you die, he'll transport you to paradise. If you won't/can't do that, then when you die, he'll transport you to a place of torment.


    Do you see a moral difference between these two scenarios? If so, please explain your reasoning. Thanks.
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  2. #2
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    1.) An armed robber approaches you. He puts his gun to your head and says he wants your money. If you give it to him, he'll let you live. If you don't, he'll shoot you.

    2.) God approaches you. He claims to be all powerful and wants you to place all of your trust in him. If you do that, then when you die, he'll transport you to paradise. If you won't/can't do that, then when you die, he'll transport you to a place of torment.


    Do you see a moral difference between these two scenarios? If so, please explain your reasoning. Thanks.
    Having a gun put to my head before I can promise you I take God's Word of Salvation any day. Yes, GF there is a difference!
    Try something else

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    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Thanks for responding, RealFakeHair. The problem with your response, though, is that you have not explained your reasoning. Simply saying, "Yes, GF there is a difference!", tells me nothing at all.
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  4. #4
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    Thanks for responding, RealFakeHair. The problem with your response, though, is that you have not explained your reasoning. Simply saying, "Yes, GF there is a difference!", tells me nothing at all.
    Well okay, wait until you have a gun put to your head and then get back to me, until them have a nice day.

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    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    The experience of having a gun put to ones head isn't the point. All you've managed to do is to leave me wondering why you responded in the first place if you had no intention of answering the OP.
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  6. #6
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Is there no one who can answer the OP?
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  7. #7
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    Is there no one who can answer the OP?
    Your intellect is far too superior to ours. We can never satisfy your inquisitive nature, it is nature isn't it?

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    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    You've already made it clear that you have no answer to the question in the OP. And, now, you seem to want me to know that you have the ability to use sarcasm. Why?
    Last edited by God-free; 06-07-2014 at 08:01 AM. Reason: grammar
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  9. #9
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    You've already made it clear that you have no answer to the question in the OP. And, now, you seem to want me know that you have the ability to use sarcasm. Why?
    Me play nice in sand box, you too?

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    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    I've been nothing but nice. You, on the other hand...
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  11. #11
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    I've been nothing but nice. You, on the other hand...
    Speaking of, "on the other hand." One must have the hand of faith, or else it becomes a marry-go-round.

  12. #12
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    This is getting old fast. My OP asks a perfectly reasonable question. Are you able to answer it? Or are you just unwilling?
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  13. #13
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    This is getting old fast. My OP asks a perfectly reasonable question. Are you able to answer it? Or are you just unwilling?
    Only because you are still here. I will give you courtesy answer with a question. "How can a blind person paint a picture of the sunrise over the ocean?
    You are asking a person of faith to question God, and it is offensive at best. Second you are asking us to question God in the same way Bo Bird-Dog, question the Army after he swore an oath, and deserted his post.
    If you have questions of God, I suggest you asks Him.
    I hope this answers your question, but I have my doubts.

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    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Only because you are still here. I will give you courtesy answer with a question. "How can a blind person paint a picture of the sunrise over the ocean?
    You are asking a person of faith to question God, and it is offensive at best. Second you are asking us to question God in the same way Bo Bird-Dog, question the Army after he swore an oath, and deserted his post.
    If you have questions of God, I suggest you asks Him.
    Like I said, my question is perfectly reasonable. If you're offended by it, I can't do anything about that. Don't you, as a Christian, have a responsibility to defend your faith (1 Peter 3:15)?

    I hope this answers your question, but I have my doubts.
    You're right to have your doubts. I'm still waiting for an answer.
    Last edited by God-free; 06-07-2014 at 09:00 AM. Reason: expanded comment
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  15. #15
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    Like I said, my question is perfectly reasonable. If you're offended by it, I can't do anything about that. Don't you, as a Christian, have a responsibility to defend your faith (1 Peter 3:15)?
    I just did. You can't understand, because you have not faith in Almighty God. That's okay, however you need to talk to God, for your answer, no human can.

  16. #16
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    You have not answered and it's clear you will not. Good day.
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  17. #17
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Anyone else want to give this a go?
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  18. #18
    cheachea
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    1.) An armed robber approaches you. He puts his gun to your head and says he wants your money. If you give it to him, he'll let you live. If you don't, he'll shoot you.

    2.) God approaches you. He claims to be all powerful and wants you to place all of your trust in him. If you do that, then when you die, he'll transport you to paradise. If you won't/can't do that, then when you die, he'll transport you to a place of torment.


    Do you see a moral difference between these two scenarios? If so, please explain your reasoning. Thanks.



    I suppose that no matter what my response is to this question it won't be good enough for you, but I'll try to give it a go so to speak.

    The Lord, The Creator of All Life has offered you a gift that you can either reject or graciously except. His Only Begotten Son as a sacrifice for Sin has been offered to you. You can freely receive this or you can reject it and receive the punishment that awaits all those who reject the only way of salvation and forgiveness of Sins that is Through Christ Jesus Our Lord.

    * In your first part you have a sinful fallen human wanting your money or they will shoot you. Some of the differences in-between the 2 parts would be that The Lord is offering you this gift Your Entire Life, and you/the person is rejecting this gift There entire life. That's a lot of time compared to maybe less than a minute of someone robbing you in exchange for your money.

    * The other thing that I would point out is that comparing Eternity in Paradise or Eternal Torment with a robbing scenario is really short sighted. The Lord is offering Right Now in Real Time the chance of Salvation for All those that believe on His Son The Lord Jesus Christ. As each day p***es another chance flies by to be received into The Kingdom of God. That's A lot of Time Right There. Compare that to less than a minute of a Robbery.


    God IS TRYING TO Get People To GO To Heaven but people love darkness rather than light. He really doesn't want people to go to Hell, but he has given us all a choice. Choice is a beautiful thing. In the end it won't be God's fault people rejected salvation. It will be the fault of the individual.

    I probably didn't answer your question as well as you wanted me to, but I did try too.

  19. #19
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Hello cheachea. Thank you for actually addressing the OP. My focus, in this thread, is only on the moral difference, if any, between the two scenarios so I’m not going to get into anything that isn’t strictly related to that. (I'd be happy to discuss anything else you'd like in a dedicated thread. Post it in the Atheism and Agnosticism forum and I'll be there. )

    In each of the examples, we have someone who wants something specific from you and threatens to inflict a penalty on you if you don’t comply. In a moral sense, I see no difference whatsoever between them. Apparently, you do see a difference but I’m confused as to what you think it is.

    Both, the robber and God, have offered positive results for you if you do as you’re told. In the God scenario, you say this is a gift. Is the robber’s offer a gift as well?
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  20. #20
    alanmolstad
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    there is a connection here.....between the robber and god...from a point of view to be sure.


    But lets go back to the beginning and look at how this all got started.

    God made man.
    God put man in the garden to tend to it's care.
    God told man that he could enjoy all the food found on the trees of the garden he was tending and careing for.
    Then God told the man not to eat of the tree smack in the middle of the garden...do that and die.


    So what we have an a type of contract between God and man.
    Where man tends a garden and gets to eat and live off food from the garden.
    But also part of the contract is the prohibition against eating one food on sentence of death.

    This is not really the type of an agreement you enter into with a robber, but it does look a lot like the arrangement you might make with a King or owner of the land you live on and work for.




    Now how did this contract end up?
    Well the man violates the part of the contract about not eating one food, and thus he is sentenced to death...
    The problem is that right after this the man begins to reproduce.
    And the "death" that came because of the contract violation and the fact that the man reproduced after the violation, the death of this single man was p***ed on to his children...over and over....year after year...child after child.

    All born after the same sentence of death p***ed on due to the violation of the contract.

    all doomed.
    The whole human "experiment" is a total FAIL.

    Thus enter into the story the person of Christ...who is not only 100% man, and so under the same sentence as the rest of the men, but also 100% God.

    In the person of Christ the whole of humanity has the opportunity to be "redeemed' under the the same contract that the first man was under...
    For as we read, there was even at the start the understanding in God's eye that only He would be able to make whole the broken contract between God and man.



    So yes to be fair, to some who are unbelievers it does look from their point of view that "God holds a gun to man's head, "Believe in me or else""
    But from another point of view what we are seeing is a rope being tossed down to ones who have fallen into a deep dark pit.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 06-08-2014 at 07:55 AM.

  21. #21
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    there is a connection here.....between the robber and god...from a point of view to be sure.


    lets go back to the beginning and look at how this all got started.

    God made man.
    God put man in the garden to tend to it's care.
    God told man that he could enjoy all the food found on the trees of the garden he was tending and careing for.
    Then God told the man not to eat of the tree smack in the middle of the garden...do that and die.


    So what we have an a type of contract between God and man.
    Where man tends a garden and gets to eat and live off food from the garden.
    But also part of the contract is the prohibition against eating one food on sentence of death.

    This is not really the type of an agreement you enter into with a robber, but it does look a lot like the arrangement you might make with a King or owner of the land you live on and work for.




    Now how did this contract end up?
    Well the man violates the part of the contract about not eating one food, and thus he is sentenced to death...
    The problem is that right after this the man begins to reproduce.
    And the "death" that came because of the contract violation and the fact that the man reproduced after the violation, the death of this single man was p***ed on to his children...over and over....year after year...child after child.

    All born after the same sentence of death p***ed on due to the violation of the contract.

    all doomed.
    The whole human "experiment" is a total FAIL.

    Thus enter into the story the person of Christ...who is not only 100% man, and so under the same sentence as the rest of the men, but also 100% God.

    In the person of Christ the whole of humanity has the opportunity to be "redeemed' under the the same contract that the first man was under...
    For as we read, there was even at the start the understanding in God's eye that only He would be able to make whole the broken contract between God and man.
    Hello alanmolstad. Am I correct to ***ume that you take the Adam and Eve story literally? If so, I'll take what you've written here and make a separate thread to address it. It won't be right away, though. I have some things to do this morning but I will get to it sometime today.

    So yes to be fair, to some who are unbelievers it does look from their point of view that "God holds a gun to man's head, "Believe in me or else""
    But from another point of view what we are seeing is a rope being tossed down to ones who have fallen into a deep dark pit.
    It does, indeed, look like God is saying "Believe in me or else." It looks that way to me and to some believers I know who don't believe the same things about God that you and cheachea seem to.
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-free View Post
    Hello alanmolstad. Am I correct to ***ume that you take the Adam and Eve story literally?
    I attempt to make use of the story in my post to help describe how I look at the relationship God has with both humanity and the whole universe in general.

    The way I see it, and from what Im looking at in the text, it seems to resemble at many points a "contract" or a "covenant" between two parties....
    The relationship that we read about between the man and the Lord in Genesis seems like a case of a violated contract, with yet a hint of redemption there in it as well.

    But I dont disagree that to some unbelievers, that the message they hear about seems to them to be a case where a Crazy guy with a gun holds it to humanity's head and demands worship or else.....

  23. #23
    Senior Member God-free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I attempt to make use of the story in my post to help describe how I look at the relationship God has with both humanity and the whole universe in general.

    The way I see it, and from what Im looking at in the text, it seems to resemble at many points a "contract" or a "covenant" between two parties....
    The relationship that we read about between the man and the Lord in Genesis seems like a case of a violated contract, with yet a hint of redemption there in it as well.

    But I dont disagree that to some unbelievers, that the message they hear about seems to them to be a case where a Crazy guy with a gun holds it to humanity's head and demands worship or else.....
    Thank you for explaining your point of view and for seeing the reason in mine.
    Q. What is an atheist?
    A. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that any god or gods exist.

    Q. How do you know God doesn't exist?
    A. I didn't say God doesn't exist. I said I don't believe it.

  24. #24
    alanmolstad
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    always happy to be of service....

  25. #25
    cheachea
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    I know this is off topic a little bit, but I just wanted to say that I'm glad you are here God-free.

    I also wanted to recommend some individuals you might find helpful/interesting.


    * Dr. William Lane Craig: You might enjoy some of his debates.





    * And Dr. Ravi Zacharias

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