What's the moral difference?

[God-free]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

Moral behavior can't be arbitrary .. You seem to think it is.

Actually, I don't. However, since you brought it up, isn't God's morality the very definition of arbitrary?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by God-free

Actually, I don't. However, since you brought it up, isn't God's morality the very definition of arbitrary?

I would say that God's morality is the definition of perfection....

However we are warned that God's ways of thinking are not human ways....
Thus while we can read and grasp what the Bible tells us God is doing , we may never know this side of heaven's gate the answer to the "why?" question.

In the book of *** we see the great "WHY?" question asked of God, and in God's answer we dont see the type of startement most of us were looking to see from Him.
We dont get an answer that wraps up everything in an easy to understand sum-total.

God's answer is to just point out how different He is, and from there we simply have to trust Him.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I would say that God's morality is the definition of perfection....

However we are warned that God's ways of thinking are not human ways....
Thus while we can read and grasp what the Bible tells us God is doing , we may never know this side of heaven's gate the answer to the "why?" question.

In the book of *** we see the great "WHY?" question asked of God, and in God's answer we dont see the type of startement most of us were looking to see from Him.
We dont get an answer that wraps up everything in an easy to understand sum-total.

God's answer is to just point out how different He is, and from there we simply have to trust Him.

I agree. In the book of Habakkuk, the prophet opens by asking God in light of all the evil and violence, why He doesn't act against it? God's answer in Chap 1 vs. 5 is"“Look around at the nations; look and be amazed! For I am doing something in your own day, something you wouldn’t believe even if someone told you about it." As believers we are sometimes perplexed by God's actions as well as His inaction in certain situations. Honestly, His ways are mysterious and misunderstood but they are always right. Sounds like an excuse but even believers must admit we don't understand much of what God does and allows. In Habakkuk Chap 2 we are told that "the just shall live by faith". Its good advise.

[God-free]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I would say that God's morality is the definition of perfection....

And I would heartily disagree.

However we are warned that God's ways of thinking are not human ways....
Thus while we can read and grasp what the Bible tells us God is doing , we may never know this side of heaven's gate the answer to the "why?" question.

In the book of *** we see the great "WHY?" question asked of God, and in God's answer we dont see the type of startement most of us were looking to see from Him.
We dont get an answer that wraps up everything in an easy to understand sum-total.

God's answer is to just point out how different He is, and from there we simply have to trust Him.

If God’s way of thinking is so much different than our own that we can‘t understand his reasoning, then on what basis do you simply trust him? How can anyone know that God is actually trustworthy?

As for poor old ***, this is only one of the many great examples of God’s immorality to be found in the “good” book.

[alanmolstad]

all we know about God is through revelation it is not a matter of thinking things through and coming up with a determination

[God-free]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

all we know about God is through revelation it is not a matter of thinking things through and coming up with a determination

Revelation, of the sort found in religion, is unverifiable. Why in the world would anyone not think it through in order to determine whether or not it's trustworthy?

[Christodoulos]

Originally Posted by God-free

Revelation, of the sort found in religion, is unverifiable. Why in the world would anyone not think it through in order to determine whether or not it's trustworthy?

all things that are verifiable are not necessarily spiritual.
you're taking a very sop****ric approach to all this.

Religion or God belief has been incrementally adding to man's human experience.

Things that are trustworthy are scientific . Religion is based on faith on something greater than one's self.

You may have a serious ego problem.

[God-free]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

all things that are verifiable are not necessarily spiritual.
you're taking a very sop****ric approach to all this.

All things that have been verified have never turned out to be anything but natural.
Realistic, critical, and practical are better descriptors of my approach but, of course, you're en***led to your own opinion.

Religion or God belief has been incrementally adding to man's human experience.

Yes, it has, with both good and bad results. If a cost-benefit ****ysis were to be done, I wonder how religion/God belief would fare. Somehow, I doubt it would fare well.

Things that are trustworthy are scientific . Religion is based on faith on something greater than one's self.

Yes, I understand that. I’m trying to figure out why anyone would believe and place their trust in something/someone, without examining the claims being made about it so they can determine its veracity and trustworthiness. I understand why heavily indoctrinated people won’t question their beliefs, especially those who never knew they could. It’s the intelligent adults who don’t/won’t question their beliefs that have me baffled.

You may have a serious ego problem.

Nice.

[Christodoulos]

Originally Posted by God-free

All things that have been verified have never turned out to be anything but natural.
Realistic, critical, and practical are better descriptors of my approach but, of course, you're en***led to your own opinion.


Yes, it has, with both good and bad results. If a cost-benefit ****ysis were to be done, I wonder how religion/God belief would fare. Somehow, I doubt it would fare well.


Yes, I understand that. I’m trying to figure out why anyone would believe and place their trust in something/someone, without examining the claims being made about it so they can determine its veracity and trustworthiness. I understand why heavily indoctrinated people won’t question their beliefs, especially those who never knew they could. It’s the intelligent adults who don’t/won’t question their beliefs that have me baffled.

Nice.

If you're looking for a belief system that can be verified in real terms then you won't find it in any religion.

But those who do believe because they have faith in God, based on the spiritual values they can understand ,are willing to accept , and feel are important ,then
that's the making of a religion.

The question isn't simply : "does this work for you".

.What god free atheists will never accept are the consequences of the world becoming a god -free zone.

And that's the problem I have with them.

Remove the Christian Faith from the Earth and mankind will revert back to his primal past. And with it all the barbarism and bestiality that existed during mankind's

earliest existence will once again appear and consume the earth. All that is of beauty ,reason and light will disappear and eventually life itself

will die out. The earth would again orbit the sun ,mindlessly and without reason.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

If you're looking for a belief system that can be verified in real terms then you won't find it in any religion.

But those who do believe because they have faith in God, based on the spiritual values they can understand ,are willing to accept , and feel are important ,then
that's the making of a religion.

The question isn't simply : "does this work for you".

.What god free atheists will never accept are the consequences of the world becoming a god -free zone.

And that's the problem I have with them.

Remove the Christian Faith from the Earth and mankind will revert back to his primal past. And with it all the barbarism and bestiality that existed during mankind's

earliest existence will once again appear and consume the earth. All that is of beauty ,reason and light will disappear and eventually life itself

will die out. The earth would again orbit the sun ,mindlessly and without reason.

It is not what man does that steers the course of the earth. God is the Lord of history. God was sovereign in creation, God is sovereign in the historical process. And God’s just as sovereign in how it all ends as He was in how it all began. God is going to end history because He began it and He’s responsible for everything that happens. So there is a divine control over history. And may I say at the same time, there’s a divine plan in history. Things don’t happen by accident. They’re a part of God’s plan. Because, you see, it’s God who sees the end from the beginning, because it’s God who knows the times and the season. God knows exactly what He’s doing, the clock of God is never off one split second. Every single thing happening in this world today is happening right on schedule because God has a divine timetable and the result will be His Kingdom.

[God-free]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

If you're looking for a belief system that can be verified in real terms then you won't find it in any religion.

I completely agree.

But those who do believe because they have faith in God, based on the spiritual values they can understand ,are willing to accept , and feel are important ,then
that's the making of a religion.

The question isn't simply : "does this work for you".

Please define "spiritual value" and then tell me the difference between that and "human value."

.What god free atheists will never accept are the consequences of the world becoming a god -free zone.

And that's the problem I have with them.

Remove the Christian Faith from the Earth and mankind will revert back to his primal past. And with it all the barbarism and bestiality that existed during mankind's

earliest existence will once again appear and consume the earth. All that is of beauty ,reason and light will disappear and eventually life itself

will die out. The earth would again orbit the sun ,mindlessly and without reason.

Well, now you’re just scaremongering. This doesn’t surprise me, though, because that’s one of the ways religion spreads itself around. It instills fear in people and then preys upon those fears.

I would happily accept the consequences of the world becoming a god-free zone. Are you not aware that among the world’s top ten peaceful nations are a high percentage of the world’s least religious countries?

[Christodoulos]

Originally Posted by God-free

I completely agree.

Please define "spiritual value" and then tell me the difference between that and "human value."

Well, now you’re just scaremongering. This doesn’t surprise me, though, because that’s one of the ways religion spreads itself around. It instills fear in people and then preys upon those fears.

I would happily accept the consequences of the world becoming a god-free zone. Are you not aware that among the world’s top ten peaceful nations are a high percentage of the world’s least religious countries?

Human values are spiritual values.
The atheists in all countries seem to think that morality dropped out of the skies.
This is just as true with individuals. You say you are a moral person ,right?
But were you born a moral person ... All morality is an inherited sum. And if you trace it back it stems from religion and a belief in something greater than oneself.

I'm not scare mongering . I'm telling you exactly what would happen if the Christian Faith were to slowly roll back and all you had were free thinking atheists. The basic human morality would slowly evaporate because there would be no solid basis on which to pin it.

In time, man would revert to a basic bestial vegetation until merciful death would end his existence.

The best proof is to view what happends in areas or in parts of american culture where Christian Faith is forced to retreat.
Shooting in public schools is just one of many areas I can point to with certainty.

[God-free]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

Human values are spiritual values.

Then what is spiritual and why do you equate that with human?
If you were to ask me where human values come from, I’d tell you they come from humans.

The atheists in all countries seem to think that morality dropped out of the skies.
This is just as true with individuals. You say you are a moral person ,right?
But were you born a moral person ... All morality is an inherited sum. And if you trace it back it stems from religion and a belief in something greater than oneself.

What you said about atheists is just silly. Some of them would likely give you an evolution related explanation. What I can tell you is that a study published in Psychological Science, has shown that babies are “disturbed by displays of injustice” indicating an innate sense of fairness. Study co-author Stephanie Sloane said, “We think children are born with a skeleton of general expectations about fairness and these principles and concepts get shaped in different ways depending on the culture and the environment they’re brought up in.”
Religion may have developed and ins***utionalized their own moral systems, but that in no way means that religion invented morality. Also, a belief in “something greater than oneself” isn’t necessary to be moral. This is demonstrated by the existence of all the good and moral atheists on the planet.

I'm not scare mongering . I'm telling you exactly what would happen if the Christian Faith were to slowly roll back and all you had were free thinking atheists.

Do you really believe that Christianity is the only thing in all the world that’s keeping the human race from running rampant? That’s simply not true. The fact is that good people will be good and bad people will be bad. Imperfect as they are, there are systems in place to separate the bad guys from the good and we can modify and improve those systems as needed.

The basic human morality would slowly evaporate because there would be no solid basis on which to pin it.

In time, man would revert to a basic bestial vegetation until merciful death would end his existence.

The best proof is to view what happends in areas or in parts of american culture where Christian Faith is forced to retreat.

I think you’re letting your imagination get the best of you. There’s a clear and compelling correlation between a largely nonreligious population and societal well being. Your predictions of what a nonreligious world would look like are unnecessarily gloomy.

Shooting in public schools is just one of many areas I can point to with certainty.

There are lots of reasons for increases in violence among children.
Genetics and environment, poor parenting, exposure to violence, social and economic factors, to name a few. To declare that THE reason is the lack of Christian faith is unjustifiable.

[Christodoulos]

Originally Posted by God-free

Then what is spiritual and why do you equate that with human?
If you were to ask me where human values come from, I’d tell you they come from humans.

What you said about atheists is just silly. Some of them would likely give you an evolution related explanation. What I can tell you is that a study published in Psychological Science, has shown that babies are “disturbed by displays of injustice” indicating an innate sense of fairness. Study co-author Stephanie Sloane said, “We think children are born with a skeleton of general expectations about fairness and these principles and concepts get shaped in different ways depending on the culture and the environment they’re brought up in.”
Religion may have developed and ins***utionalized their own moral systems, but that in no way means that religion invented morality. Also, a belief in “something greater than oneself” isn’t necessary to be moral. This is demonstrated by the existence of all the good and moral atheists on the planet.


Do you really believe that Christianity is the only thing in all the world that’s keeping the human race from running rampant? That’s simply not true. The fact is that good people will be good and bad people will be bad. Imperfect as they are, there are systems in place to separate the bad guys from the good and we can modify and improve those systems as needed.

I think you’re letting your imagination get the best of you. There’s a clear and compelling correlation between a largely nonreligious population and societal well being. Your predictions of what a nonreligious world would look like are unnecessarily gloomy.

There are lots of reasons for increases in violence among children.
Genetics and environment, poor parenting, exposure to violence, social and economic factors, to name a few. To declare that THE reason is the lack of Christian faith is unjustifiable.

you may be fighting your imagination .. in terms of morality and its sustainability in human society.

Lock five best friends in a room with only four bags of groceries to survive on and come back after a week and then talk to me about morality and injustices in the world.

[God-free]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

you may be fighting your imagination .. in terms of morality and its sustainability in human society.

I only fight my imagination on the rare occasions when it tends to run wild.

Lock five best friends in a room with only four bags of groceries to survive on and come back after a week and then talk to me about morality and injustices in the world.

Wow. You have a shockingly low opinion of people.

[Christodoulos]

Originally Posted by God-free

I only fight my imagination on the rare occasions when it tends to run wild.

Wow. You have a shockingly low opinion of people.

I believe in a God who redeems people not worthy of redeeming. It's not a LOW opinion of people ,it's the way it is.

[God-free]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

I believe in a God who redeems people not worthy of redeeming.

Why do you believe that? And who are the people you're referring to?

It's not a LOW opinion of people ,it's the way it is.

Those 5 best friends you spoke of would, more likely than not, manage to stretch those 4 bags of groceries in such a way as to make sure no one went without during their week of captivity. It probably wouldn't be that hard to do. But, the reason I said you have a low opinion of people is because the challenge was a pretty mild one. You gave me the impression that you would expect them to be at each other's throats.

"The way it is" is that people aren't perfect and never have been. That doesn't mean we're all terrible people. This idea from religion, that people are desperately wicked and every part of them (mind, will, emotions and flesh) are corrupted, is one of the things I despise about it. It's simply not true. I'd go so far as to say that to teach these things amounts to mental and emotional abuse. It's intended to crush a person's self-esteem so that they'll latch on to "salvation" being offered. It's akin to a doctor cutting you with his scalpel just so he can sell you a band aid -- a very expensive band aid it is, too.

[Christodoulos]

Originally Posted by God-free

Why do you believe that? And who are the people you're referring to?

Those 5 best friends you spoke of would, more likely than not, manage to stretch those 4 bags of groceries in such a way as to make sure no one went without during their week of captivity. It probably wouldn't be that hard to do. But, the reason I said you have a low opinion of people is because the challenge was a pretty mild one. You gave me the impression that you would expect them to be at each other's throats.

"The way it is" is that people aren't perfect and never have been. That doesn't mean we're all terrible people. This idea from religion, that people are desperately wicked and every part of them (mind, will, emotions and flesh) are corrupted, is one of the things I despise about it. It's simply not true. I'd go so far as to say that to teach these things amounts to mental and emotional abuse. It's intended to crush a person's self-esteem so that they'll latch on to "salvation" being offered. It's akin to a doctor cutting you with his scalpel just so he can sell you a band aid -- a very expensive band aid it is, too.

I said to check on how the 5 best friends were doing after 4-5 days .. there was no set time mentioned.

I know that you are probably a public school teacher or social welfare worker ;it doesn't really matter.

I don't know how you can be blind to the rest of the world.

If you want a glimpse of the barbarism which exists in today's world ,it's still there ,it's still part of humanity ;and if this is how it is today ,you don't really need a vivid imagination to see what mankind experienced in past ages.

As Christianity retreats ,and it is retreating, all the progress humanity has made to date will recede along with it.

Look at the middle east.. Look at Africa.Look at Asia.

[God-free]

Originally Posted by Christodoulos

I said to check on how the 5 best friends were doing after 4-5 days .. there was no set time mentioned.

Yes, but after only a week, what would you expect to find? Like I said, you gave the impression that you expected that they’d be at each other’s throats (or at least you would expect to find one of the friends dead or dying from lack of food and water). I think people are better than that. Although, I must admit, there are times when I think the world would be a much better place without us in it.

I know that you are probably a public school teacher or social welfare worker ;it doesn't really matter.

I’m neither, but it’s nice to be mistaken for those things. Thank You!

I don't know how you can be blind to the rest of the world.

Oh, I’m not blind to what’s happening in the world. I’m just not attributing it to what religion calls “the fall of man.” And, I’m certainly not attributing it to the entirety of the human race. To do that is tantamount to a slap in the face to all of the truly good people, religious and non-religious, who are working to make the world a better place. That being said, one would have to be blind not to see that a huge chunk of the world's troubles are due to religious differences.

If you want a glimpse of the barbarism which exists in today's world ,it's still there ,it's still part of humanity ;and if this is how it is today ,you don't really need a vivid imagination to see what mankind experienced in past ages.

I’m aware of what humanity has experienced in past ages. That includes an awareness of the role religion has played in so much of it (and still does). Thank goodness for the enlightenment/secularism and the First Amendment of our Cons***ution. Without that, myself and many, many more would probably have been burnt at the stake by now, by the Christians in this country, for the “crime” of nonbelief (basically, thought crime).

As Christianity retreats ,and it is retreating, all the progress humanity has made to date will recede along with it.

If Christianity is retreating, it’s likely because people are finally beginning to see through it. I feel safe in saying that the progress we’ve made over the last couple of centuries has occurred despite Christianiy/religion, rather than because of it.

Look at the middle east.. Look at Africa.Look at Asia.

Look at the United States! Just this morning I came across this.
It spells out some of the reasons why the US is experiencing so many problems lately (I‘m looking at you, GOP). It talks about:

- the scarcity of ***s and why

- wealth inequality and why

- who is really making our laws

- the U.S. prison population compared to other countries

and more.
All this is happening in a country where, if you include Catholics, approximately 75% of the population self-identifies as Christian. It’s an eye-opener and I recommend that you read it (it won‘t take long).