John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) and Kate Kelly (Ordain Women) threatened with excom

[Libby]

You know, when it comes to revelation, members are always encouraged to receive their own confirmation.

When I was still in the church, Bishop's first counselor was our GD teacher. He was a lawyer and a very bright guy. He told us that, although, individuals in the church could not implement revelation for the whole church, it does, sometimes, happen that individuals (perhaps, many at once) will become aware of revelation, intended for the whole church, that has not yet come to the attention of the "prophet". I found that very interesting. He was talking about the revelation regarding blacks in the priesthood, specifically, at that time.

If members are supposed to receive "affirmation" of all of the prophets revelations, it stands to reason that they could also receive revelation, intended for the whole church. Again, that doesn't mean they have authority to implement it, but it doesn't mean they have to keep their mouth shut about it, either....or shouldn't.

Mind you, this is purely hypothetical, on my part, at this point, but seemed worth mentioning, in defense of OW.

[Phoenix]

If your teacher actually told you that, he taught you false doctrine IMO. God runs things in a more organized way than that. If He intends to reveal something new, He knows that the way it works is that He will reveal it to His servants the prophets first. That's one of the reasons why prophets exist in the first place.

[Libby]

Okay, in protest of the possible pending excommunication of OW's founder, Kate Kelly, a protest by the MEN, supporting OW, is being planned for the October Conference.

TKH (using initials to protect iden***y) is organizing a bunch of men who will show up for Priesthood dressed in women's clothing, to stand in as proxy for the women who have not been allowed in the priesthood sessions. Now THIS should be interesting!!! LOL

TKH said, if there is any question about his gender, he is fully willing to raise his dress to prove it. lol He says, he's getting a lot of support for this, so we shall see.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

You know, when it comes to revelation, members are always encouraged to receive their own confirmation.

When I was still in the church, Bishop's first counselor was our GD teacher. He was a lawyer and a very bright guy. He told us that, although, individuals in the church could not implement revelation for the whole church, it does, sometimes, happen that individuals (perhaps, many at once) will become aware of revelation, intended for the whole church, that has not yet come to the attention of the "prophet". I found that very interesting. He was talking about the revelation regarding blacks in the priesthood, specifically, at that time.

If members are supposed to receive "affirmation" of all of the prophets revelations, it stands to reason that they could also receive revelation, intended for the whole church. Again, that doesn't mean they have authority to implement it, but it doesn't mean they have to keep their mouth shut about it, either....or shouldn't.

Mind you, this is purely hypothetical, on my part, at this point, but seemed worth mentioning, in defense of OW.

If this were to happen, and I've never heard it taught, I would say that it would an affirmation in advance. It does not mean that the person should be vocal about it because just as a regular confirmation is for that particular person, something like this would be for that particular person only. What we have been taught is that a person can receive revelation for what they have stewardship over, nothing more.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, in protest of the possible pending excommunication of OW's founder, Kate Kelly, a protest by the MEN, supporting OW, is being planned for the October Conference.

TKH (using initials to protect iden***y) is organizing a bunch of men who will show up for Priesthood dressed in women's clothing, to stand in as proxy for the women who have not been allowed in the priesthood sessions. Now THIS should be interesting!!! LOL

TKH said, if there is any question about his gender, he is fully willing to raise his dress to prove it. lol He says, he's getting a lot of support for this, so we shall see.

This will accomplish nothing but making those men look silly, in my opinion. The Church does not, and hasn't ever, worked this way. If they want to protest, then protest by leaving the church. I really have a hard time with those that want to change the way the church runs because it doesn't fit with their personal views. If you don't like it get out. I have a friend here at work that helped me get my *** here. He has always been on the verge of the more liberal side of things and is now questioning his beliefs in the church. His brother left the church many years ago. I have more respect for the brother that left the church then my friend who is questioning the church and wants the church to change to conform with what he feels is right.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

This will accomplish nothing but making those men look silly, in my opinion. The Church does not, and hasn't ever, worked this way. If they want to protest, then protest by leaving the church. I really have a hard time with those that want to change the way the church runs because it doesn't fit with their personal views. If you don't like it get out. I have a friend here at work that helped me get my *** here. He has always been on the verge of the more liberal side of things and is now questioning his beliefs in the church. His brother left the church many years ago. I have more respect for the brother that left the church then my friend who is questioning the church and wants the church to change to conform with what he feels is right.

It's the current fashion statement among liberals theses days: Occupy Wall Street, or occupy whatever, in order to get your way. Unfortunately for them, it doesn't usually work. Just ask the Israelites who wanted Moses to change Judaism to accommodate calf-worship. It didn't end well for them because God usually doesn't give in to peer pressure from His chosen people, especially when the change they are whining for is inappropriate. Churches that surrender to such extortion often end up as an afterthought in history.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It's the current fashion statement among liberals theses days: Occupy Wall Street, or occupy whatever, in order to get your way. Unfortunately for them, it doesn't usually work. Just ask the Israelites who wanted Moses to change Judaism to accommodate calf-worship. It didn't end well for them because God usually doesn't give in to peer pressure from His chosen people, especially when the change they are whining for is inappropriate. Churches that surrender to such extortion often end up as an afterthought in history.

I would definitely question the idea that the changes is inappropriate. Inappropriate until the prophet has a revelation.

I've talked to many of these women. They are not "rebels"...not really. Many are very conservative, in most ways...very polite, very civil. They just feel very strongly that the priesthood should be extended to women. Actually, not even all of them are pressing for that. Some would simply like to see women have more input, generally speaking, in all areas, even without the priesthood.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

I would definitely question the idea that the changes is inappropriate. Inappropriate until the prophet has a revelation.

I've talked to many of these women. They are not "rebels"...not really. Many are very conservative, in most ways...very polite, very civil. They just feel very strongly that the priesthood should be extended to women. Actually, not even all of them are pressing for that. Some would simply like to see women have more input, generally speaking, in all areas, even without the priesthood.

If I personally feel strongly that baptism should be done by sprinkling is it appropriate for me to gather like minded individuals and march on Salt Lake to demand answers/action?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

If I personally feel strongly that baptism should be done by sprinkling is it appropriate for me to gather like minded individuals and march on Salt Lake to demand answers/action?

I think it's very unfair to characterize what these women did, in that way. They lined up in a holding area, waiting to ask permission to be allowed into the priesthood session. They were not carrying signs, they were civil and orderly. The did not "march" anywhere, nor did they make "demands". They quietly and respectfully asked (one by one) for admission into the priesthood session. That wasn't even asking for the priesthood. Would it have really been so awful for the church to allow them in?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think it's very unfair to characterize what these women did, in that way. They lined up in a holding area, waiting to ask permission to be allowed into the priesthood session. They were not carrying signs, they were civil and orderly. The did not "march" anywhere, nor did they make "demands". They quietly and respectfully asked (one by one) for admission into the priesthood session. That wasn't even asking for the priesthood. Would it have really been so awful for the church to allow them in?

Ok, if I walk politely with a couple hundred people, at conference time in front of thousands of members, and ask politely that they change a fundamental principle of the gospel then that is OK?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Ok, if I walk politely with a couple hundred people, at conference time in front of thousands of members, and ask politely that they change a fundamental principle of the gospel then that is OK?

Not only that, if I create a website for my cause and spread my beliefs throughout the church that is ok as well?

Also, it they didn't need to carry signs because they had news coverage that had already announced their intentions so signs were unnecessary.

[alanmolstad]

signs?...... dont allow signs?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

If I personally feel strongly that baptism should be done by sprinkling is it appropriate for me to gather like minded individuals and march on Salt Lake to demand answers/action?

thats not a bad idea....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Ok, if I walk politely with a couple hundred people, at conference time in front of thousands of members, and ask politely that they change a fundamental principle of the gospel then that is OK?

It should be okay to ask. Why not?

And, I reject the notion that asking to attend a priesthood meeting is "changing a fundamental principle of the gospel".

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

If your teacher actually told you that, he taught you false doctrine IMO. God runs things in a more organized way than that. If He intends to reveal something new, He knows that the way it works is that He will reveal it to His servants the prophets first. That's one of the reasons why prophets exist in the first place.

Sounded very reasonable, to me. He gave examples, like I said, with the blacks in the priesthood issue. He was not one to teach false doctrine. Very devout and very bright man.

[Libby]

Does anyone know if John and Kate will be allowed to defend themselves in this court thing?

[Libby]

This will air tomorrow morning on "Good Morning America" (ABC, I think).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QirwM...=share&index=7

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Libby

Does anyone know if John and Kate will be allowed to defend themselves in this court thing?

Yes they will be given their time to defend themselves.

Marvin.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Yes they will be given their time to defend themselves.

Marvin.

Thanks, Marvin. Nice to see you again.

It appears that John's court has been postphoned or possibly called off. He is, instead, going to have a meeting with his Stake President on June 28th. The President has expressed a wish to "deescalate". His words. So, that sounds like a good thing.

Kate Kelly, on the other hand, is out of the country and, as far as I know, had no opportunity to address her issues, and probably will not be able to defend herself, unless it's by phone or something.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

It should be okay to ask. Why not?

And, I reject the notion that asking to attend a priesthood meeting is "changing a fundamental principle of the gospel".

You know darn well that isn't just what they wanted. It is very clear with the ***le of their group "Ordain Women."

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You know darn well that isn't just what they wanted. It is very clear with the ***le of their group "Ordain Women."

I have it on good authority from Professor Iam a lyin that women were holders of the imaginary mind priest of Joseph Smith jr.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You know darn well that isn't just what they wanted. It is very clear with the ***le of their group "Ordain Women."

I know very well, that some women in this group do not really care about the priesthood (they believe they already have it). Even one of the women interviewed, said that very thing. I knew two women who gave their own children, hands on blessings, way back when I was still in the church. I also knew women who prayed to Heavenly Mother. Some women don't wait for the men to give them authority to do certain things. This group has many members with slightly different goals. The thing that binds them is the desire to have more input and visability in the church. Did you know that the Conference Center didn't have any pictures of women on the walls, until just recently?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yes. They are trying to live 2 opposing lives--one where they are members who believe the leaders are legitimate, and one where they think the leaders are no more called of God than they are. That hardly ever ends well.

Well they are half right!

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

I know very well, that some women in this group do not really care about the priesthood (they believe they already have it). Even one of the women interviewed, said that very thing. I knew two women who gave their own children, hands on blessings, way back when I was still in the church. I also knew women who prayed to Heavenly Mother. Some women don't wait for the men to give them authority to do certain things. This group has many members with slightly different goals. The thing that binds them is the desire to have more input and visability in the church. Did you know that the Conference Center didn't have any pictures of women on the walls, until just recently?

Of course there are individuals with different views than the whole in any group there is. However, when the organizing group is Ordain Women, then those participating are by default supporting the cause to ordain women.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Of course there are individuals with different views than the whole in any group there is. However, when the organizing group is Ordain Women, then those participating are by default supporting the cause to ordain women.

Yes, they do "support" it.