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Thread: Revelation 3:10

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    alanmolstad
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    Default Revelation 3:10


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    alanmolstad
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    The videos on the end times are just for being "food for thought"

    But the truth is, Im not convinced that this teaching is correct at all.

    Something about it hits me as being not correct.....something smells of being "forced to look good" in order to agree with other things....

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The videos on the end times are just for being "food for thought"

    But the truth is, Im not convinced that this teaching is correct at all.

    Something about it hits me as being not correct.....something smells of being "forced to look good" in order to agree with other things....
    This type of teaching is typical from Pretribbists, as far as I have heard in the last 40 years. I don't usually listen to it, unfortunately all the churches I have attended so far whose leadership taught on eschatology had this view, which is very popular these days in the wake of the "Left Behind" series. I tend to lean more toward the orthodox historic view.

    But let's look carefully at the verse rev. 3:10 and its context. It is speaking to the church at Philadelphia in the first century, not to some generalized universal body of believers some 2000 years later. The historical context is AD 95 and the great persecution of Christians by Domitian. If this is what is meant, then one does not have to ***ume that "those who dwell on the earth" is everyone, both believers and unbelievers; but one could infer from the context that He meant "those Christians who dwell in the whole earth." This is one possible interpretation. Another interpretation is that the trial is a famine or plague or some other natural disaster that could have spanned most of the Roman Empire, but somehow was lost by information not being p***ed down. Certainly the Roman Empire was in its beginning throes of its fall at that time, although it took another 200 years for the decline.

    The point I'm making is that to apply Rev. 3:10 to another group 2000 years later, one would have to ignore the ch. 1 statement about things "shortly to take place" and to ignore parallel statements to other churches like "for 10 days". This statement is for a specific event in that era, and for a specific church. It is not legitimate to be used to support the Pretrib theory.

    On the other hand, we can properly use this verse in application to ourselves as a general promise of God to preserve us from heavy trials if we clean up our act (so to speak) - that is, do all that Jesus commanded and get ourselves ready for His coming (even though it might not happen in our lifetime). Worst case is that we procrastinate on purifying ourselves, then God sends us through terrible trials that force us to deal with our sin and submit to God. So then the verse is not out of our application; but using it to support a theory of eschatology requires pretexting of it, which is a misuse.
    TD

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    alanmolstad
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    My concern is the idea that God has to "beam" Christian people off the earth that love him, so they can not be harmed in the coming tribulation....and yet there are Christians who live all during the tribulation and are said to suffer for their faith greatly....

    So the reason for the "beaming" is lost on me if we know that there are Christians that will suffer...?

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    alanmolstad
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    If we were to read in the Bible that "none" of the Christians were going to suffer during the Tribulation, then i could see the point of the "beaming"

    I mean if you know there are Billions of Christians on the earth at any one time, and you also read in the Bible that in the future there will be "zero" Christians on the earth for say 7 years, then you got to find a place for Billions of Christians to go, and so the "beaming" would be handy way to get them off the earth .


    But the bible does not say there ever will be "zero" christians one day on the earth.

    In fact, the Bible tells us clearly that there will be uncountable numbers of Christians who will suffer and die in the tribulation.

    So from my point of view, because I can read that the Bible tells me that many, many Christians will suffer during the tribulation I do not see any "beaming" happening at all....


    thus, from my point of view the church is not "taken away" from the earth before the tribulation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    If we were to read in the Bible that "none" of the Christians were going to suffer during the Tribulation, then i could see the point of the "beaming"

    I mean if you know there are Billions of Christians on the earth at any one time, and you also read in the Bible that in the future there will be "zero" Christians on the earth for say 7 years, then you got to find a place for Billions of Christians to go, and so the "beaming" would be handy way to get them off the earth .


    But the bible does not say there ever will be "zero" christians one day on the earth.

    In fact, the Bible tells us clearly that there will be uncountable numbers of Christians who will suffer and die in the tribulation.

    So from my point of view, because I can read that the Bible tells me that many, many Christians will suffer during the tribulation I do not see any "beaming" happening at all....


    thus, from my point of view the church is not "taken away" from the earth before the tribulation.
    I agree. But: "if you don't believe in the rapture you'll get left behind" - is the implication of the pretribbers. I've heard it, and if we did a survey, I think many hear the same thing. They don't see it as cult-like behavior trying to frighten people into accepting their doctrine. In fact, I used to be of that persuasion until I studied the scripture for myself.

    My point is, this is how they argue for Christians being in the Trib - they got "left behind." I once asked a pretrib teacher how many resurrections he thought there were going to be, and he said 7. Convenient number.
    TD

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    what I dont see in the Pre-Trib line of thinking is the great need.....what is this great need God would have to remove people from the earth that beieve in him,,,if the next day others that also will believe in him are not also taken?

    You take away a few Billion people because you worry they could not withstand the great tribulation, and yet the next day when a new believer gives their heart to the Lord you dont take them away too?

    So what was the reason for taking the church the day before that is not the reason the day after?


    This is why I kinda think the whole pre-trib concept is not logical....

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    what I dont see in the Pre-Trib line of thinking is the great need.....what is this great need God would have to remove people from the earth that beieve in him,,,if the next day others that also will believe in him are not also taken?

    You take away a few Billion people because you worry they could not withstand the great tribulation, and yet the next day when a new believer gives their heart to the Lord you dont take them away too?

    So what was the reason for taking the church the day before that is not the reason the day after?


    This is why I kinda think the whole pre-trib concept is not logical....
    I think that many people don't consider that the saved church is the bride of Christ. Not to over simplify, but would a groom take his bride, pure and dressed in white and right before the marriage drop her off in the worst part of town to be abused and in constant danger only to bring her to the wedding after she has gone through trials and suffering? Why? Would she more righteous in the sight of the groom? No the bride have already been declared righteous. Would suffering make her more pure? No the Groom has made her to be without spot or blemish. I believe in Pre-trib rapture not because I want to escape God's wrath but because Jesus wants me to escape God's wrath.
    1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
    1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”
    Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
    Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I think that many people don't consider that the saved church is the bride of Christ. Not to over simplify, but would a groom take his bride, pure and dressed in white and right before the marriage drop her off in the worst part of town to be abused and in constant danger only to bring her to the wedding after she has gone through trials and suffering? Why? Would she more righteous in the sight of the groom? No the bride have already been declared righteous. Would suffering make her more pure? No the Groom has made her to be without spot or blemish. I believe in Pre-trib rapture not because I want to escape God's wrath but because Jesus wants me to escape God's wrath.
    1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
    1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”
    Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
    Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”
    The wrath these verses are talking about is the lake of fire, which is a permanent condition. The wrath poured out on the earth during the Great Tribulation pales in comparison, it being a mere taste of the wrath of God on each unrepentant individual at the Great White Throne Judgment. Believers who are alive on the earth during the G.T. are not receiving the wrath of God, because God is able to protect each one of them from harm, even as He protected the Israelites in Egypt from the plagues He inflicted on the Egyptians. However, the scripture says "through many (great) tribulations shall we enter the kingdom of God." Peter wrote for us to prepare ourselves for suffering!! Therefore, your ****ogy is neither reasonable, nor scriptural. When God chastised Israel, both the righteous and the unrighteous suffered with it. Righteous men like Daniel were carried off to slavery. Even the remnant that remained was seriously affected. Heb. 12 tells us to consider hardship as God's discipline for us to share in His holiness. Therefore, although none of us desire to suffer, we must be willing to go through it for His name -- Rom. 8 "if we suffer with Him, we shall also be glorified with Him." None of us have any hope of going through the G.T., however we must prepare ourselves as though we were. We shall certainly suffer persecution, even though God has the power to protect us from the kind of harm that the world will receive. We should hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. "...Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" - God uses trials to deliver us, even though we ask Him not to. We don't want the trials, but we know we're going to get them.
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    The wrath these verses are talking about is the lake of fire, which is a permanent condition. The wrath poured out on the earth during the Great Tribulation pales in comparison, it being a mere taste of the wrath of God on each unrepentant individual at the Great White Throne Judgment. Believers who are alive on the earth during the G.T. are not receiving the wrath of God, because God is able to protect each one of them from harm, even as He protected the Israelites in Egypt from the plagues He inflicted on the Egyptians. However, the scripture says "through many (great) tribulations shall we enter the kingdom of God." Peter wrote for us to prepare ourselves for suffering!! Therefore, your ****ogy is neither reasonable, nor scriptural. When God chastised Israel, both the righteous and the unrighteous suffered with it. Righteous men like Daniel were carried off to slavery. Even the remnant that remained was seriously affected. Heb. 12 tells us to consider hardship as God's discipline for us to share in His holiness. Therefore, although none of us desire to suffer, we must be willing to go through it for His name -- Rom. 8 "if we suffer with Him, we shall also be glorified with Him." None of us have any hope of going through the G.T., however we must prepare ourselves as though we were. We shall certainly suffer persecution, even though God has the power to protect us from the kind of harm that the world will receive. We should hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. "...Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" - God uses trials to deliver us, even though we ask Him not to. We don't want the trials, but we know we're going to get them.
    TD
    Hi TD,

    Interesting view, but how do you come to the conclusion that the "wrath" in these verses is referring to the lake of fire? Hardship and suffering are part of the human condition, both the saved and the unsaved go through them. The saved person is declared righteous and has been justified, suffering and hardship do not enhance these positions. Does God allow suffering, hardships and does He chastise the saved? Yes. Wrath is not chastisment or hardship or persecution, wrath is vengance and condemnation. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi TD,

    Interesting view, but how do you come to the conclusion that the "wrath" in these verses is referring to the lake of fire? Hardship and suffering are part of the human condition, both the saved and the unsaved go through them. The saved person is declared righteous and has been justified, suffering and hardship do not enhance these positions. Does God allow suffering, hardships and does He chastise the saved? Yes. Wrath is not chastisment or hardship or persecution, wrath is vengance and condemnation. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
    Your contrariness doesn't prove anything except that you didn't read what I wrote carefully enough.
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Your contrariness doesn't prove anything except that you didn't read what I wrote carefully enough.
    TD
    Hello TD,
    When someone takes the time to reply to anything I post I always read it carefully. I just don't agree with what you said, especially the statement,"God uses trials to deliver us". Trials deliver us from what exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hello TD,
    When someone takes the time to reply to anything I post I always read it carefully. I just don't agree with what you said, especially the statement,"God uses trials to deliver us". Trials deliver us from what exactly?
    From your laziness, neglect, and foolishness:
    Jas 1:2-4: Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

    From your unbelief:
    1Pe 1:6-7: In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    From your impatience:
    Rom 5:3: And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

    From your ungodliness:
    Heb 12:10-11: For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

    From your waywardness and lost condition:
    Act 14:22: strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

    From your lack of concern for others:
    2Co 1:4: who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

    From wrong priorities:
    2Co 4:17: For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,

    From failure to repent:
    Rev 2:22: ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

    From lack of prayer:
    Psa 86:7: In the day of my trouble I shall call upon You, For You will answer me.

    From your sinfulness:
    1Pe 4:1-2: Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

    From yourself!!
    Heb 12:8: But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    From your laziness, neglect, and foolishness:
    Jas 1:2-4: Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

    From your unbelief:
    1Pe 1:6-7: In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    From your impatience:
    Rom 5:3: And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

    From your ungodliness:
    Heb 12:10-11: For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

    From your waywardness and lost condition:
    Act 14:22: strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

    From your lack of concern for others:
    2Co 1:4: who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

    From wrong priorities:
    2Co 4:17: For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,

    From failure to repent:
    Rev 2:22: ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

    From lack of prayer:
    Psa 86:7: In the day of my trouble I shall call upon You, For You will answer me.

    From your sinfulness:
    1Pe 4:1-2: Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

    From yourself!!
    Heb 12:8: But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

    TD
    Hello TD,

    Well done, it's nice to get a straight answer when you ask for one. I am humbled by your throughness.

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