The TBMs have long past worked out that problem by just not thinking about it, as they do with many things that came out of the imaginary mind of Joseph Smith jr,
A couple of years ago, here, and on CARM, I did the same thing, and calculated the m*** of the tablets to be 200+ pounds if they were solid gold.
The pathetic mormons went bananas because they could not challenge the math that I did. I wish that I had the original OP I made, so I could request him citing me as a resource
A couple of years ago, here, and on CARM, I did the same thing, and calculated the m*** of the tablets to be 200+ pounds if they were solid gold.
The pathetic mormons went bananas because they could not challenge the math that I did. I wish that I had the original OP I made, so I could request him citing me as a resource
LOL.... No all you did was embarr*** yourself.
There are at least three firsthand witnesses which said the weight was around 40-60 pounds.
Also they are called the golden plates, not the gold plates. They were discribed as having the "appearance" of gold.
You just wasted your time and can not except that you erred.
The TBMs have long past worked out that problem by just not thinking about it, as they do with many things that came out of the imaginary mind of Joseph Smith jr,
That has been addressed numerous times. As the translators found out--it could not have been engraven if it were solid gold. They were a gold alloy.
They are referred to as "golden plates"--which indicates the color--not the gold content.
Those who hefted the plates estimated them to be around 60 pounds.
Nonsense
How can you be certain since no one has ever really "seen" the plates except Joseph Smith? And we can't even be certain of the weight since there are conflicting stories.
Even at the lowest estimate of 40 lbs, imagine picking up a 40 lb sack of redi-mix concrete, placing it under your arm and then running three miles through the woods as Smith allegedly did as he fended off robbers (as Martin Harris and Smith's mother Lucy claim). Not likely.
Joseph Smith recorded in his official history that the angel informed him the plates were gold:
When first I looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me and that his name was Moroni. . . . He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the sources from whence they sprang (History of the Church, vol. 1, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, pp. 11-12).
However, in 1842, Smith seemed to qualify his description of the plates. He wrote to John Wentworth that the plates had "the appearance of gold":
These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters on the unsealed part were small, and beautifully engraved (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 537).
The change from stating the plates were "gold" to the "appearance of gold" was possibly due to someone pointing out that a stack of plates such as he described would have weighed somewhere in the vicinity of 200 pounds. Since he supposedly ran a distance of three miles, jumping over obstacles, and warding off ***ailants, all while carrying the plates, his story would lack credibility.
A discussion of the weight and size of the plates was given by LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris:
The plates upon which the Book of Mormon was engraved were made of gold and have been described as being about six inches wide by eight inches long by six inches thick. A cube of solid gold of that size, if the gold were pure, would weigh two hundred pounds, which would be a heavy weight for a man to carry, even though he were of the athletic type of Joseph Smith. This has been urged as an evidence against the truth of the Book of Mormon, since it is known that on several occasions the Prophet carried the plates in his arms. It is very unlikely, however, that the plates were made of pure gold. They would have been too soft and in danger of destruction by distortion. For the purpose of record keeping, plates made of gold mixed with a certain amount of copper would be better, . . . If the plates were made of eight karat gold, which is gold frequently used in present-day jewelry, and allowing a 10 percent space between the leaves, the total weight of the plates would not be above one hundred and seventeen pounds—a weight easily carried by a man as strong as was Joseph Smith (Seven Claims of The Book of Mormon: A Collection of Evidences, by John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris, Jr., Zion's Printing and Publishing Company, 1937, pp. 38-39).
While Apostle Widtsoe proposes a possible weight for the plates of 117 pounds, the friends of Smith estimated them to be between 40 and 60 pounds.
Martin Harris estimated the weight of the plates at "forty or fifty pounds." (Tiffany's Monthly, 1859, p. 166, reprinted in Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 306) This would not be enough weight for them to be made of lead, let alone gold. We have a set of lead plates made to the size described by Smith and they weigh 117 pounds. This weight is too great and the plates too cumbersome for Smith to have run through the woods three miles while fighting off attackers, as described by both Martin Harris and Smith's mother, Lucy.
A number of people mention "hefting" the plates: Lucy and Martin Harris, their daughter, Emma Smith, Lucy Smith, William Smith and others. Martin Harris related:
My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the gl***-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them (Early Mormon Documents , vol. 2, p.309).
If the plates weighed only "forty or fifty pounds" as Harris stated, his wife and daughter possibly could have picked them up. But are we to believe that this young woman hefted at least 117 pounds?
Dan Vogel theorizes that Smith could have constructed a set of plates from tin:
His [Smith's] remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him. Indeed, his prohibition against visual inspection seems contrived to the skeptic who might explain that the would-be prophet constructed a set of plates to be felt through a cloth.
The construction of such a book would have been relatively easy. There were s****s of tin available on the Smith property and elsewhere in the vicinity, . . . Using a pair of metal shears, it would have been easy to cut a number of 6x8-inch sheets. A hole punch, nail, or some similar instrument could have been used to make three holes along one edge of each plate. Then it would have been a matter of p***ing three wires or rods through the holes and bending them into rings. A book made of tin plates of the dimensions (6x8x6 inches) described by Smith would have weighed between fifty and sixty pounds, corresponding to the weight that was mentioned by eye-witness accounts (Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, p. 98).
In order to explain the disparity between the plates being gold and the weight given by those who hefted the covered plates, Mormons have suggested that the plates were made out of "tumbaga," a metal made out of part gold and part copper. They ***ume the plates were approximately 8 to 12 carat gold. For instance, LDS author Michael Ash proposes a possible weight "between 53 and 86 pounds." Apostle Widtsoe's figures were also calculated with an ***umption of 8 carat gold. The difference is that Widtsoe (Seven Claims of The Book of Mormon, p. 38) ***umed a "10 percent space between the leaves" while Ash ***umes that the "unevenness left by the hammering and air spaces between the separate plates would reduce the weight to probably less than 50 percent of the solid block." (www.mormonfortress.com/gweight.html)
One problem with this theory is that Mormons also maintain the plates contained very fine, small characters (necessary in order to write the entire Book of Mormon on the relatively few sheets). This would seem to necessitate a fairly smooth surface. The argument for uneven sheets resulting in fifty percent weight loss would also reduce the number of plates available for engraving.
Bill McKeever gave the following response to the effort of an LDS organization, FARMS, to promote the tumbaga theory:
The FARMS' article supports the tumbaga theory by referring to William Smith, Joseph's brother, who was quoted in the Saints Herald (31, 1884, p. 644) as stating that the plates were a mixture of gold and copper. One can only imagine how William arrived at such a conclusion since there is no evidence to suggest that the plates were ever ****yzed. Making William's statement even less credible is the fact that he admitted to having never seen the plates. He claimed, "I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow-case; but not to see them, as was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment" (A New Witness for Christ in America 2:417). FARMS insists that tumbaga plates would have weighed only about 53 pounds. In other words, it would be like carrying a sack of redi-mix concrete.
Despite the effort from FARMS to change LDS history, it appears that the tumbaga theory is not being taken too seriously. As recently as May 15, 1999, the LDS Church News ran an article en***led "Hands-on opportunity." Speaking of Joseph Smith, it read, "He had also been instructed by an angel, Moroni, who had met with him each year for four years. On his last visit, he was entrusted with plates of solid gold, which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit" (http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/how-heavy.html).
To date LDS scholars have failed to show that native Americans recorded their history or religious texts on metal sheets during the Book of Mormon time period. Deanne Matheny, anthropologist and former instructor at BYU, commented:
The peoples of Mesoamerica possessed a stone age technology, and metal appears to have arrived late in the sequence of most regions, where it was little used for utilitarian objects ("Does The Shoe Fit? A Critique of the Limited Tehuantepec Geography," by Deanne G. Matheny, New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, edited by Brent Lee Metcalfe, Signature Books, 1993, p. 276).
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post That has been addressed numerous times. As the translators found out--it could not have been engraven if it were solid gold. They were a gold alloy.
They are referred to as "golden plates"--which indicates the color--not the gold content.
Those who hefted the plates estimated them to be around 60 pounds.
Originally Posted by Berean
Nonsense How can you be certain since no one has ever really "seen" the plates except Joseph Smith?
Cite, please:
Testimony of Eight Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith
the problem with the supposed golden plates is that they do not exist, never have and no one can verify smith's words. that is a lousy foundation to stake one's eternity on
the problem with the supposed golden plates is that they do not exist, never have and no one can verify smith's words.
Testimony of Three Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
Testimony of Eight Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith
Problems with the Gold Plates of the Book of Mormon
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by alanmolstad
