Why Mormonism

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Doesn't the Bible actually quote Jesus addressing that idea?

"Search the scriptures, for in them YOU THINK you have eternal life" ?

Isn't salvation actually found in God and in His Son?

Well how bout this.
ST John 5: 43. I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Whom do you receive Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible or Joseph Smith jr?
"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

[jdjhere]

As a matter of fact, when Jesus was confronted by satan in the desert, what did He say to him? "It is WRITTEN... It is WRITTEN...It is WRITTEN." (Matthew 4:4) But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." He also mentioned what was written about HIM in the SCROLLS. (Luke 24:27) Jesus often referenced the Scriptures, even all the way back to Adam and Eve. (Matthew 19:4) "And he answered and said unto them,"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female."

He also said "the Scriptures CANNOT be broken." (John 10:35)

It would appear our Lord put extreme importance on the Scriptures and believed them to be true.


Phoenix asked: "Isn't salvation actually found in God and in His Son?"

jdjhere responded to Phoenix- Salvation is found in God THE Son. Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

"No one comes to the Father BUT BY ME." (John 14:6 -Jesus Christ)

[jdjhere]

John 5:39-47 Lets take a look at the Scripture you quoted:

(Jesus)"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Are we still supposed to believe Moses "writings?" Are we still supposed to believe Jesus's "words?" How do we know what they are? By reading them. That is why its called the "Living" Word of God.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Whom do you receive Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible or Joseph Smith jr?

If the question is slightly changed to this:

"Whom do you receive: Jesus Christ OR the Holy Bible OR Joseph Smith jr?"

my answer is "I receive Jesus Christ." I repeat: The scriptures don't save you. Deity saves you. People were getting saved before there was a New Testament.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

As a matter of fact, when Jesus was confronted by satan in the desert, what did He say to him?

He didn't say "I am not the Savior, the Scriptures are."

Phoenix- Salvation is found in God THE Son.

So you have decided to agree with me that it's not the Bible that saves people. Good. Now, are you saying that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit play no part in a person's salvation?

[jdjhere]

I actually do agree... kind of. I agree that God saves you and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ALL save you because they are the One True God (in 3 persons). I also believe that without the Scriptures people would not know what is required to be saved.That is just the way God did it. It is Gods instrumental message to initially and continuosly reach us. It is the Living Word of God. I believe the Bible plants the seeds and then the Holy Spirit moves in you and helps you to better understand and interpret the Scriptures. That is why it is like a two edged sword, it cuts to the marrow. The Bible explains that Jesus Christ died for us and through His voluntary sacrifice and through his blood we are washed clean of sin. He did it all on the cross for those that will believe in Him and it is enough for the sins of the whole world but only for those that believe on His name and accept him as Lord and God. He reconciles us to the Godhead through His Vicarious Subs***utionary Atonement.

[alanmolstad]

the Scriptures are the words of life...
They do save our souls.

Nothing we can ever come to know about the Lord can disagree with what we have received in the text....

[alanmolstad]

If you become part of a religion that has as one of it's teachings that "The Bible cant save you"....then you can know that you have left the Christian Faith, and are now in a non-Christian CULT!


If you join a religion that has a lower position of the Scriptures, or attempts to place the Holy Scriptures on an equal level as other written works found in other religions, then you can know you are in a CULT.

If you become involved with a religion that claims that your "personal revelation" is eqiual in authority, then you can know you are in a CULT.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

I actually do agree... kind of. I agree that God saves you and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ALL save you because they are the One True God (in 3 persons).

Then we need to get clarification on what your theology or soteriology is.

Does Jesus ALONE save you? (Do you believe that Jesus (God the Son) is a different PERSON from God the Father and God the HS?

I also believe that without the Scriptures people would not know what is required to be saved.That is just the way God did it.

Wasn't there a time when there were no scriptures? Was it impossible for anyone to be saved until scriptures existed?

It is the Living Word of God.

You mean Jesus isn't the Living Word of God? Some paper pages in a book are?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the Scriptures are the words of life...

But those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. The Bible says that we are saved by GOD's grace, through faith in CHRIST.

They do save our souls.

I was taught that Jesus saves. I even saw a bumper sticker that said it.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If you become part of a religion that has as one of it's teachings that "The Bible cant save you"....then you can know that you have left the Christian Faith, and are now in a non-Christian CULT!

That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people.

boy you sure don't want to touch this......no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

[jdjhere]

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God."

In context, this verse is about the written Word- the Bible. I believe we hear ABOUT the Word (the Bible), we then READ it and God then SAVES you IF you accept the Scripture (by reading it) stating Christs died FOR you and for me and for all of us. At THAT point, God DOES save us and we receive the Holy Spirit who leads us and helps us understand Scripture and we, like babes, hunger for more. Then we go from milk to meat over the years as we grow in the Lord, trying to be more Christ-like.

Side note: Phoenix (or is it the Pheonix??)- Do you believe this, as posted by RealFakeHair??

"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

If you believe this, can you explain why? If not, just ignore this or tell me you do not believe it. Thanks.

[jdjhere]

Phoenix?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad: "the Scriptures are the words of life..."

Phoenix responded "But those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. The Bible says (letters on a page) that we are saved by GOD's grace, through faith in CHRIST.

You got this idea FROM a Bible verse.

Are we just splitting hairs here? Would it be fair to say the Bible is Gods LIVING Perfect Word and it LEADS or POINTS you to salvation? God LIVES in His Word and it is inexplicably connected to Christ.

[jdjhere]

Phoenix stated (post#61) "That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people. "

Only when THIS is part of their teaching as well- ""no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

Phoenix (or is it the Pheonix??) If you believe this, can you explain why? If not, just ignore this or tell me you do not believe it. Thanks.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

But those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. The Bible says that we are saved by GOD's grace, through faith in CHRIST.


I was taught that Jesus saves. I even saw a bumper sticker that said it.

The words of life.....There is no separation between the Lord and his word....If one can't save the other cant...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people.

All cults have their own false Christs.......bow down to a false Christ in worship and discover only too late that in doing so you walk away from the only true christ.....

Do so many great works in the name of a false Christ and only too late learn that the true Christ does not know who you even are

[jdjhere]

Phoenix?? (jdjhere bumps Phoenix)

Do you believe this?

""no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

As an LDS, do you believe the above? Its a simple yes or no answer. Do you need Joseph Smiths consent to get into the celestial kingdom?

[jdjhere]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

phoenix?

quote originally posted by alanmolstad: "the scriptures are the words of life..."

Phoenix responded "but those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. the Bible says (letters on a page) that we are saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ.

You got this above truth from a Bible verse (letters on a page).

And read Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God.

Are we just splitting hairs here? Would it be fair to say the Bible is Gods living perfect word and it leads or points you to salvation? God lives in His Word and it is inexplicably connected to Christ the Father and the Holy Spirit.

tttttttttttttttttttttttttt

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

boy you sure don't want to touch this....

I am not afraid to 'touch' it. It's not as blasphemous as you want it to be, when its context (including Bible verses that establish similar ideas) is considered.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God."

In context, this verse is about the written Word- the Bible.

In the CORRECT context, it was, at the time it was written, probably NOT about the Bible as commonly defined by modern people, since at that time, the corpus of canonized scripture was probably much less than today's "official" Christian Bible. They had the OT, plus a very few epistles that were officially recognized as scripture.

I believe we hear ABOUT the Word (the Bible), we then READ it and God then SAVES you IF you accept the Scripture (by reading it) stating Christs died FOR you and for me and for all of us.

So when missionaries go to African villages where no Bible has been translated into their language, and those missionaries merely TALK about Jesus (because that's the only way they can teach people with no written language or no books that have been translated into their language), it's impossible for those villagers to be saved?

Side note: Phoenix (or is it the Pheonix??)

I am the one without the "the"

- Do you believe this, as posted by RealFakeHair??

Only in a context similar to the scenario described in the Bible and commonly believed by most Christians, where saints and/or prophets will be chosen by Christ to be sentinels who will be given the responsibility to only admit the "elect" into God's presence.

You are welcome.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I am not afraid to 'touch' it. It's not as blasphemous as you want it to be, when its context (including Bible verses that establish similar ideas) is considered.

Well if you don't want to touch it, just take a peek at it. Oh, and with out a doubt it is blasphemous as one could have made it, but Joseph Smith jr. Must have got a kick out of it.

[jdjhere]

""no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

As an LDS, do you believe the above? Its a simple yes or no answer. Do you need Joseph Smiths consent to get into the celestial kingdom?

Phoenix replied "Only in a context similar to the scenario described in the Bible and commonly believed by most Christians, where saints and/or prophets will be chosen by Christ to be sentinels who will be given the responsibility to only admit the "elect" into God's presence."

Could I have a few of these verses you are referring to, Phoenix? Thanks.

[Phoenix]

As far as beliefs commonly held by Christians go, the cl***ic example is St. Peter deciding who gets admitted past the pearly gates of heaven, and who must take the "down" elevator.

As far as Bible verses go, one example is 1 Cor. 6--"do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?"

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

As far as beliefs commonly held by Christians go, the cl***ic example is St. Peter deciding who gets admitted past the pearly gates of heaven, and who must take the "down" elevator.

As far as Bible verses go, one example is 1 Cor. 6--"do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?"

In case of Mormons, that elevator only has one ****on, you wanta quess which way it goes?