Origins of unbelief

[MacG]

Originally Posted by God-free

Yes, I see a contradiction, but it isn’t in the same ballpark as the “sins of the father” contradiction. You’re talking about eyewitness testimony, whereas I’m talking about God’s contradictory rules concerning punishment for someone else‘s sin/iniquity.

It goes to the ability to distinguish between a contradiction and an apparent contradiction. Both of the 'testimonies' are true and in fact not a contradiction - how can that be?

[God-free]

Originally Posted by MacG

It goes to the ability to distinguish between a contradiction and an apparent contradiction. Both of the 'testimonies' are true and in fact not a contradiction - how can that be?

After a closer reading, I now see that there might not be a contradiction in your traffic incident story. I’m still wondering what that story has to do with God’s contradictory rules concerning punishment for someone else’s sin/iniquity. Regardless, you asked me if I “found on [my] read through the bible where [my pastor] was mistaken.” I haven’t. The pastor’s sermon was biblically accurate.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by God-free

After a closer reading, I now see that there might not be a contradiction in your traffic incident story.

With a little discovery effort you can become certain there is no contradiction. However you could decide it is not worth your time or call BS and move on but remain misinformed. You could ask "Where did this happen?" I could tell you "West 39th Avenue and State Line Road." Unless you know the area you would not know that I can be in two different Kansas Cities, each in a different at the same time, entering one and leaving the other. It is only a detail which someone with an interest in the subject would do, say someone astute enough to have noticed such a 'contradiction' in the first place.

I’m still wondering what that story has to do with God’s contradictory rules concerning punishment for someone else’s sin/iniquity.

As with my traffic incident story there are statements which appear to be contradictory at face value but are they really contradictory? It would take a bit of effort by someone who was interested in the subject...

Regardless, you asked me if I “found on [my] read through the bible where [my pastor] was mistaken.” I haven’t. The pastor’s sermon was biblically accurate.

I have no doubt it was accurate...from a certain point of view...but what to make of those verses you have found which state that we are not held accountable for our fathers sins?

[God-free]

Originally Posted by MacG

With a little discovery effort you can become certain there is no contradiction. However you could decide it is not worth your time or call BS and move on but remain misinformed. You could ask "Where did this happen?" I could tell you "West 39th Avenue and State Line Road." Unless you know the area you would not know that I can be in two different Kansas Cities, each in a different at the same time, entering one and leaving the other. It is only a detail which someone with an interest in the subject would do, say someone astute enough to have noticed such a 'contradiction' in the first place.

Those things occurred to me already and it’s why I said there might not be a contradiction in your traffic story. I saw the point you were making without the need to delve into those details.

As with my traffic incident story there are statements which appear to be contradictory at face value but are they really contradictory? It would take a bit of effort by someone who was interested in the subject...

I have no doubt it was accurate...from a certain point of view...but what to make of those verses you have found which state that we are not held accountable for our fathers sins?

I agree with the verses that say a father shall not be killed for a crime committed by his son (and vice versa). My point is that there are many instances in the Bible where God and/or his followers DO kill or otherwise punish innocents for the “sins” of others. I see, not just specific verses, but the entire Bible as contradictory and not the product of any deity worthy of reverence.

Do you really think that after struggling with this for those many years, that I haven’t made an effort? Really? The only way to make the Bible into a “good” book, in one’s own mind, is to completely ignore or reinterpret the horrid parts that make up the majority of it. In other words, it must be twisted William-Lane-Craig-style* and cherry picked.

* “So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites? Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgment. Not the children, for they inherit eternal life. So who is wronged? Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing.” ~ William Lane Craig

Oh, the poor soldiers! Sickening!

　

[MacG]

Originally Posted by God-free

Those things occurred to me already and it’s why I said there might not be a contradiction in your traffic story. I saw the point you were making without the need to delve into those details.

Since you said there "might not be a contradiction" it sounded as if you weren't sure.

I agree with the verses that say a father shall not be killed for a crime committed by his son (and vice versa). My point is that there are many instances in the Bible where God and/or his followers DO kill or otherwise punish innocents for the “sins” of others. I see, not just specific verses, but the entire Bible as contradictory and not the product of any deity worthy of reverence.

I am not aware of these innocents. God even put a mark on Cain so no one would kill him but then post flood, orders the destruction of the Cananites. But looking at the Arab Nations vow to push modern Israel into the sea and the utter brutality that Hamas, ISIS et al demonstrates, ain't no one going to talk or reason them into peace. If the Cananites were like these guys it would explain a lot.

Do you really think that after struggling with this for those many years, that I haven’t made an effort? Really?

I did not mean to offend.

The only way to make the Bible into a “good” book, in one’s own mind, is to completely ignore or reinterpret the horrid parts that make up the majority of it. In other words, it must be twisted William-Lane-Craig-style* and cherry picked.

* “So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites? Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgment. Not the children, for they inherit eternal life. So who is wronged? Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing.” ~ William Lane Craig

Oh, the poor soldiers! Sickening!

　

William Lane Craig is only a man who I believe is wrong in this paragraph. Rather contradictory as well as he explains that the people of the time were more accustomed to tribal warfare but then describing the Soldiers as feeling bad about it or being 'wronged'.

[God-free]

I wasn't offended; just a little irked.