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Thread: Why we take it literally.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    so..if you take out the "he made" addition to the verse, and just stick to the parts you know are meant to be there...does the sentence work?.....
    The answer is YES!......it works just fine......

    "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night the stars also"

    All it says is that the lesser light will rule the night and the stars also.........its no big deal...Thats after all what the lesser light still 'rules" or overpowers the darkness of the night and the sky filled with stars......
    This is a strong argument until you look at the whole context:
    14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; [He made] the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
    This is the context of the 4th day, and it clearly states "God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth" - if God PLACED them (or SET), then it means that God placed them there on the 4th day. If you claim that clouds were removed on that day to expose what was there already, then you are changing the text.
    TD

  2. #52
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    although times have changed, let me tell you a little story that shows how the two lights were "set".

    I grew up in a small town and before Christmas at the main store on main street they would hang a curtain in the main store front window and coverup what was being prepared to show .
    Then on an evening before Christmas they would pull back the covering and people could see for the very first time the things that the store had for sale this year that were new and interesting.

    Now, it is true that when they pulled back the covering the things that were sitting in the window were new to the people looking.

    But its not like the things just suddenly appeared there in that moment the curtain was pulled aside.
    But it was the first moment that people were allowed to see what was behind the curtain.


    The two lights are a bit like that in the Genesis story.

    The "source" of all the lights talked about in Genesis is introduced early on with the words "In the beginning God created the heavens..."
    But we also had a world covered in darkness as we learned in the book of *** that I talked about in the comments before this.

    So although we have plenty of source for light, and plenty of the sun's light burning brightly, the thick clouds of the book of *** have cast the earth in "darkness"

    The story advances, and we get the "Let there be light" and there is suddenly some light on the earth.
    But notice it's not a lot of light.

    Yes, if you look at the wordings here at this early part of Genesis all you can see as far as light goes is that there is a noticeable difference between "day" and "night" but not much else.

    So we are able to tell the difference between "day"
    But what does the word "day" mean?
    The answer is: that you have a "day" when the part of the earth you are standing on, (or in this case the part of the earth the Spirit of God is hovering over) turns in the direction of the sun.
    Same is true when the bible tells us that due to the thinning clouds we now can see when it is "night"
    The reason we have something called a "night" is when the part of the earth we are standing on turns away from the sun.

    So everything is in place to have normal days and nights, just like we have today!
    We have an earth spinning in its rotation and orbit around the sun.

    That is when we have days and nights, today as well as way back in the story of Genesis.

    No need to invent weird "days" and weird 'nights" and weird reasons to have them before there was a sun.
    The reason we see days and night in Genesis is the same reason we have them today.


    In the book of *** we learned about the thick clouds that cast the earth seas in darkness at the time of Genesis, but we also know that in our age we dont see such clouds anymore.

    What happened to the clouds?.....
    the answer is that they thinned out and slowly allowed more and more of the sun's "Greater light" to be seen on the earth.
    This is why the sun's light is talked about in a progressive way on the 4th day.

    Notice that the things the greater amount of light show us on the 4th day.
    Its a slowly clearing sky.....and finally even the dim light of the stars is able to be seen though the clearly sky.


    and on that note, have you noticed that the story of Genesis does not say that the "sun" was made on the 4th day?
    Do you know why it does not say that the "sun was made" on the 4th day?....it could not say that!

    The sun was already made and burning brightly in the heavens from the beginning.
    But on the 4th day that amount of light is talked about.


    This is like what is going on right now on other of our sister worlds.
    While the inner planets around our sun are not covered in a blanket of thick clouds anymore, we yet still see that on the outer words there still is a covering of thick clouds around worlds like Neptune ( see http://nineplanets.org/neptune.html )

    The ground of that planet is likely cast in thick darkness as was the earth at one time too. (as talked about in Genesis)
    And because the sun's solar wind has not yet stripped away the thick clouds you continue to have this darkness on the outer worlds.
    But if you could slowly strip away the clouds around the planet Neptune what would you see?

    The answer is: that at first you would be only able to tell the difference between day and night, as you started to be able to tell when the part you are standing on turned toward the sun and then turned away from the sun.
    Later as more of the clouds thinned away you would be able to see the reflected light off of the many moons around Neptune, and also be able to tell when the tilt of the planet gave you different seasons, like winter and your summer.
    You would be able to tell when a year on Neptune had happened.

    the final thing you would be able to see and inform you that all the thick clouds have all thinned away would be that at night you would be able to see the stars.


    Now, the day you are first able to make out the stars you might think that on that same day "god made the stars today"...but that would be wrong.
    It might appear to you that the "stars are brand new", but thats not really the case.
    the stars are billions of years old, but your being able to see them is brand new.

    God has "set" them before you for the first time....

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    although times have changed, let me tell you a little story that shows how the two lights were "set".

    I grew up in a small town and before Christmas at the main store on main street they would hang a curtain in the main store front window and coverup what was being prepared to show .
    Then on an evening before Christmas they would pull back the covering and people could see for the very first time the things that the store had for sale this year that were new and interesting.

    Now, it is true that when they pulled back the covering the things that were sitting in the window were new to the people looking.

    But its not like the things just suddenly appeared there in that moment the curtain was pulled aside.
    But it was the first moment that people were allowed to see what was behind the curtain.


    The two lights are a bit like that in the Genesis story.

    The "source" of all the lights talked about in Genesis is introduced early on with the words "In the beginning God created the heavens..."
    But we also had a world covered in darkness as we learned in the book of *** that I talked about in the comments before this.

    So although we have plenty of source for light, and plenty of the sun's light burning brightly, the thick clouds of the book of *** have cast the earth in "darkness"

    The story advances, and we get the "Let there be light" and there is suddenly some light on the earth.
    But notice it's not a lot of light.

    Yes, if you look at the wordings here at this early part of Genesis all you can see as far as light goes is that there is a noticeable difference between "day" and "night" but not much else.

    So we are able to tell the difference between "day"
    But what does the word "day" mean?
    The answer is: that you have a "day" when the part of the earth you are standing on, (or in this case the part of the earth the Spirit of God is hovering over) turns in the direction of the sun.
    Same is true when the bible tells us that due to the thinning clouds we now can see when it is "night"
    The reason we have something called a "night" is when the part of the earth we are standing on turns away from the sun.

    So everything is in place to have normal days and nights, just like we have today!
    We have an earth spinning in its rotation and orbit around the sun.

    That is when we have days and nights, today as well as way back in the story of Genesis.

    No need to invent weird "days" and weird 'nights" and weird reasons to have them before there was a sun.
    The reason we see days and night in Genesis is the same reason we have them today.


    In the book of *** we learned about the thick clouds that cast the earth seas in darkness at the time of Genesis, but we also know that in our age we dont see such clouds anymore.

    What happened to the clouds?.....
    the answer is that they thinned out and slowly allowed more and more of the sun's "Greater light" to be seen on the earth.
    This is why the sun's light is talked about in a progressive way on the 4th day.

    Notice that the things the greater amount of light show us on the 4th day.
    Its a slowly clearing sky.....and finally even the dim light of the stars is able to be seen though the clearly sky.


    and on that note, have you noticed that the story of Genesis does not say that the "sun" was made on the 4th day?
    Do you know why it does not say that the "sun was made" on the 4th day?....it could not say that!

    The sun was already made and burning brightly in the heavens from the beginning.
    But on the 4th day that amount of light is talked about.


    This is like what is going on right now on other of our sister worlds.
    While the inner planets around our sun are not covered in a blanket of thick clouds anymore, we yet still see that on the outer words there still is a covering of thick clouds around worlds like Neptune ( see http://nineplanets.org/neptune.html )

    The ground of that planet is likely cast in thick darkness as was the earth at one time too. (as talked about in Genesis)
    And because the sun's solar wind has not yet stripped away the thick clouds you continue to have this darkness on the outer worlds.
    But if you could slowly strip away the clouds around the planet Neptune what would you see?

    The answer is: that at first you would be only able to tell the difference between day and night, as you started to be able to tell when the part you are standing on turned toward the sun and then turned away from the sun.
    Later as more of the clouds thinned away you would be able to see the reflected light off of the many moons around Neptune, and also be able to tell when the tilt of the planet gave you different seasons, like winter and your summer.
    You would be able to tell when a year on Neptune had happened.

    the final thing you would be able to see and inform you that all the thick clouds have all thinned away would be that at night you would be able to see the stars.


    Now, the day you are first able to make out the stars you might think that on that same day "god made the stars today"...but that would be wrong.
    It might appear to you that the "stars are brand new", but thats not really the case.
    the stars are billions of years old, but your being able to see them is brand new.

    God has "set" them before you for the first time....
    Out of its context, this looks like a very convenient theory. However, let's look carefully at what some other of the context actually says:
    v. 16 says the 2 great lights were "made", which is the same verb as is used in other days for beasts, plants, etc. This term is equivalent to "created" since: "created" was used in both v. 1 for the heavens and earth, and in v. 21 for all living things in the sea, and BOTH terms were used for man in v. 26-27. Many terms in the scripture are this way, different terms used interchangeably for the same meaning, in fact all languages do this.

    Therefore the common-sense conclusion to this is that the "great lights" (i.e. sun and moon) were CREATED on the 4th day, this would be the literal interpretation.

    Furthermore, your theory that the cloud receded "slowly" (i.e. like natural processes today, as you describe) would be wrong, since it happened in a single 24-hr period.
    TD

  4. #54
    alanmolstad
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    the light of the Sun is not the same thing as the Sun itself in the same way the sound of my truck is not the same thing as my truck my truck can be running and if I'm inside the house I can hear it but the moment I step outside I hear the sound of my truck its not appeared and it's not the truck suddenly started up its just at the moment I was able to first. That's the truth that I hurt its the same way with the Sun with printing for billions and billions of years it's just that when the clouds parted and Finn that we were able to see it

  5. #55
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    I'm at work until I am NOT typing this I'm using my voice translator on my phone so there are some errors I will fix it when I have time hopefully you will be able to tell what I meant to say

  6. #56
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    I'm going to have to wait before I respond the translator on my phone is not adequate you're not getting exactly what I meant to say

  7. #57
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    I'm at work so I just don't have the time right now to respond and the way I am responding now I am speaking into my cell phone and it's trying to translate my words into printed text but it doesn't do a very adequate *** sometimes what I wanted to say is this that the sound of my car running is not the same thing as my car just as the light of the Sun is not the same thing as the Sun when its night time I don't actually see the light of the Sun but that does not mean there was no Sun the Sun is still burning as brightly as ever this just as much light hitting the earth as ever it's just because of rotation of the earth place where I am standing has turned away from the Sun is so I can not the sun's light that's all the text at the fourth day is saying to us the light of the Sun was not seen before and now it is this is why the text does not say that the Sun was created or made on the 4th day but it does say that the light did become seen on the fourth day it was mademore clear to the person who is standing on the earth and remember when you read the first part of the book of Genesis we are given the point of view of the person who is telling the story the person is the person of the Holy Spirit who is said to be hovering over the waters with your point of view that's why there is day and night unless you have someone who has a point of view on the earth there is no day and night day and night does not happen in outer space Dez night does not happen in orbit but Dan night does happen if you are on the ground or in this case hovering over the surface of the waters because there was no ground yet

  8. #58
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    one of the errors that people make when they read the book of Genesis is it they take the point of view of someone watching the story unfold from the position of orbiting in space looking down at the whole earth sorta like astronauts this is wrong this is not the point of view of Genesis this is not the point of view of the writer of Genesis this is not the point of view of the person who is telling us the story of Genesis we are told the point of view of the writer of Genesis and that is the point of view of someone who is hovering over the surface of the waters that's why that verse is there it tells us to take that point of view the point of view of someone who is hovering just over the surface of the water that person will experience what we called day and night

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    You presume again that the entire earth is Eden, but not true. Eden was located in Eastern Turkey, and the garden had distinct boundaries. When they sinned, they were cast out into the larger world where the thorns and thistles already were. We also cannot presume that "good" means pristine, since the Heb. term can also mean "it fits His purpose well", which I believe is true to the context. A good read is "The End of Christianity: Finding a Good God in an Evil World" by William Dembski, in which he points out that God could have created the universe with decay from the beginning, in anticipation of sin coming in with Adam and Eve, such that the effect of sin is retroactive to the beginning of creation, just as Christ's redeeming sacrifice was retroactive to the beginning. So then, Adam and Eve did not experience the curse of the ground until they were cast out of the garden where God kept them separated from it.

    In regard to dominion, Adam had it only in Eden. He was given a command to multiply and fill the earth, a command that God knew Adam would never fulfill. It was when they were cast out of the garden that the environment went from pristine to corrupt. Furthermore, when Rom. 5 says that death came through Adam, it is talking about spiritual death. Physical death of animals and plants already existed.

    TD
    I see from Gen. chap 1, that Adam, Eve, animals and vegetation were on the earth.

    “And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

    I also see that Gen. chap. 2, the Lord plants a garden on earth and put Adam and Eve in the garden.

    “The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”

    My point was, that what was on earth before God planted the garden in Eden, was not corrupt and was considered by God to be very good. I see no mention of thorns and thistles at the end of chap. 1.

  10. #60
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    Are you a biologist?

    So ,what do you really know?

    All you know is what Ken Ham would like you to know.

    You hardly know the scriptures or how to read them.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    one of the errors that people make when they read the book of Genesis is it they take the point of view of someone watching the story unfold from the position of orbiting in space looking down at the whole earth sorta like astronauts this is wrong this is not the point of view of Genesis this is not the point of view of the writer of Genesis this is not the point of view of the person who is telling us the story of Genesis we are told the point of view of the writer of Genesis and that is the point of view of someone who is hovering over the surface of the waters that's why that verse is there it tells us to take that point of view the point of view of someone who is hovering just over the surface of the water that person will experience what we called day and night
    Here is where our paths diverge. Your interpretation here is very weak and appears like a mere opinion compared to my previous explanation from the scriptures. I am very far from convinced.
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Here is where our paths diverge. Your interpretation here is very weak and appears like a mere opinion compared to my previous explanation from the scriptures. I am very far from convinced.
    TD
    could you narrow down for me what part of my post you were thinking of?

    the stuff you quoted i wrote on my phone by talking into it however the phone does not break my spoken words up into sentences.

    so my posts yesterday look like silly huge wads of text!
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-20-2014 at 01:26 AM.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Here is where our paths diverge. Your interpretation here is very weak and appears like a mere opinion compared to my previous explanation from the scriptures. I am very far from convinced.
    TD

    Lets go over the text in question , and allow me to show you what i think is being talked about and why...


    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good
    ,



    The reality is that this is an Anthropomorphism (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism )
    Where we find the Bible talking about God in terms that are describing human stuff.

    This is like saying "The right hand of God" when because god is pure spirit he lacks hands and feet....

    So when we read that God sees things, or learns things, or speaks as is said he does in Genesis, that we understand that this is just a way for us to understand some things God wants us to know about Himself, that otherwise we would never understand.

    God does not see like people see, because he has no eyes.

    God does not speak the way we speak for god has no lips.

    God does not "hover" like a bird because God has no wings

    But yet we do read that god sees, God speaks, and God hovers as this helps us understand something about what God wants us to know about Himself.




    Thus.......


    When in the beginning of the Genesis story we read that the Spirit of the Lord was "hovering" over the waters, this is for a very good reason.....
    Because it tells us something important to the rest of our story.
    For actually gives the reader a "point of view" ......


    Why do we need a "point of view"?
    The answer is : that it gives us a mental point of view to take and keep in mind as we read the rest of the story.


    So what is the Genesis point of view that the Bible wants us to take?
    The answer is : that we are to take the point of view of the Spirit of God who is said to be "hovering" over the water.


    This is the Genesis point of view.
    We are to read the story as someone who is hovering over the water.


    This is very important, as it sets the tone for all the rest of the story.

    Once we take the correct "hovering" point of view, then the very next part of the text makes complete sense.
    For in the very next part of the Text we read that now the Lord starts to "speak" and "see" things.
    But the point of view we are to take while reading about the God looking and speaking is one where the Lord is said to be "hovering" just over the water.

    So when the Lord is said to "see" something happen in the sky in the genesis story, the mental point of view we are to read this with is not like we are looking down at the earth from the International Space Station, rather we are to have the Point of view of someone who is hovering over the water and looking UP at the sky!



    The problem is that because of all the space photos of NASA we have slipped into the trap of thinking that the Genesis story should be understood from the point of view of God being like some sort of an astronaut......
    But this is an error and it leads to a false idea as to what the Genesis store is saying.

    The writer of the Genesis story had an earth-bound point of view in his mind when he wrote this genesis story.and so when we read it we should read it within the context of the way it was written.

    The correct Point of view of a person hovering just a bit over the water can help you understand why the bible then talks about 'days".
    The "days" of Genesis are only talked about after the idea of the "hovering" point of view is introduced.

    Days are important to the story.

    Question, what is a day?
    The Answer is:, Days are the result of the earth where you are located spinning in its rotation toward and then away from the direct sun's light.

    Days dont happen in deep space.

    Days dont happen to someone who is floating high around above the earth in orbit.

    But when you are hovering over over the water, and you have a real earth-bound 'location" then because of the rotation of the earth you will experience the rising and lowering of the sun....and thus experience what is commonly known to us as a "day"







    tdidymas This is the best answer I got for you.
    I spent a LONG time on this post....I re-worked on it over and over to get it to not only say what i wanted to say, but I also got it to look on your computer screen the way i wanted it to appear so as to be easy to read and understand.

    In other words.....I hope you can take the time to give it a glance and with luck this will make any confusing and poorly written posts I made before more clear.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-20-2014 at 04:08 AM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post

    Therefore the common-sense conclusion to this is that the "great lights" (i.e. sun and moon) were CREATED on the 4th day, this would be the literal interpretation.

    TD


    Here is a story that might help you understand how I think about one little Bible error i see lots of people make.



    I was debating with a friend of mine who is a Jehovah's Witness.
    We were talking about John1:1

    The problem was that every time my friend would read the verse he would add 'a god' to the verse.

    Even when I proved that it should read "GOD" he still would add "a god' whenever he was talking about it.

    The "a god' addition happen so fast that i doubt he actually knew he was doing it.


    The same thing happens to good Christian bible students when they read the Genesis story dealing with the 4th day....
    The may read with their eyes, "greater light" but their minds automatically re-translate this into "the sun"

    They may not even realize they are doing this form of adding to the word of God.
    It happens so fast....
    It's subconscious....


    But I think that what they are actually doing is replacing what the Bible actually says, with something else that just agrees with what they would have wished the bible had said in the first place.


    I simply put forward to you that you might try once to just read the text as it appears, and to not change things.....
    Just read it as it appears , regardless of what they might do to other things you believe in...


    Thus when you are reading about the "greater light' dont mentally write over the top of that "The Sun"
    Just read whats there and don't force yourself to rewite anything!

    So what are we supposed to do when we read about the "greater light"???????
    The answer is : just leave it be what it is......its a "Greater LIGHT"!!!!!!!!!


    a greater "LIGHT!"






    No need to rush in and fix the bible.
    No need to rewrite anything.
    The Bible is talking about a "greater amount of light, and thats-that....no big deal.......

    Lets think of it another way.
    The "sound" on my old truck is "greater" than the lessor sound of my new car.
    But is the sound of my truck the same as my truck?.....no!

    Is the sound of my car the very same thing as the car itself?.....no!

    I can have the truck around and there is no sound at all .
    I can look at my truck running and be in a location where I cant hear it at all.
    So the sound of something is not the same as the thing itslef.....


    the "light" of a star is not the same thing as the star itself.
    You can have a star in our sky that because of many things you cant see.
    Even right now as i write this the stars are all shining down on me just as much as ever, yet because its noon I dont see any 'light" from the stars at all.....they are all still there...they have not changed a bit....
    But many things cause a star's light to be visible or invisible....



    In the story of Genesis we read about "Darkness" that covers the earth.
    in the book of *** we learned the reason for the darkness was thick clouds that covered the seas.
    So although the sun itself was unchanged and was burning just as much then as it does to this very day, yet due only to the thick Clouds talked abut in *** the earth was in darkness.....


    But on the 4th day of Genesis we read about the thinning of these clouds to the point where even the dim light of the stars was now seen..




    Thus we are reading on the 4th day of Genesis NOT about the creation of the sun, moon, and stars at all.
    What we are in fact reading about on the 4th day is just what it says there.....the "light" is now greater.

    the amount of light hitting the earth has changed.

    this is a very big deal....

    The sun has not changed.
    The amount of heat and light flowing from the sun in unchanged.
    But the amount of light seen on the surface of the earth has changed a lot.....

    and that is what we read about on the 4th day!
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-20-2014 at 04:50 AM.

  15. #65
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    Hi Alan, You said:
    "a lot of bible students are taught by their teachers that "God made the sun on the 4th day"....but if the bible student were to actually go read the text for the 4th day , they would see that "This is not what the text says..."

    The problem is that if you just take the Text as written, then you totally destroy all the Young Earth arguments....
    Yes, its true.
    If you just read and believe the Genesis text as we see it written in the bible you don't find any issues with their being an Old earth,,,or any disagreements with Evolution....nor any reason for Bible students to worry that they need to invent all kinds of anti-science concepts like the "sourceless light"


    Ok, so looking at the text from the King James Version,
    14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
    15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
    16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
    18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    We know today that all it takes to have a day-night cycle is a rotating Earth and light coming from one direction. The Bible tells us clearly that God created light on the first day, as well as the Earth. Thus we can deduce that the Earth was already rotating in space relative to this created light. This was not a "sourceless" light, the Creator was the source.
    God can, of course, create light without a secondary source. We are told that in the new heavens and Earth there will be no need for sun or moon (Rev 21:23). In Genesis, God even defines a day and a night in terms of light or its absence.
    On the fourth day the system we have now was ins***uted as the Earth’s temporary lights (until the new heaven and earth) were made (vs. 16), so the diffused light from the first day was no longer needed. I don't see this explanation adding to or changing the text, nor is it anti-science.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    check *** 38 verse 4 to confirm that we are dealing with the same moment in time as is dealt with in genesis...


    Then look at this -
    "Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
    9 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness'



    So in *** we read about the seas, and them being in "darkness".....but we also are told the reason the *** seas and the Genesis "waters / the deep" are in darkness too.....

    "clouds"
    The clouds and darkness are being described as a garment for the sea. The commentary ***ociated with the verses you referenced from https://www.biblegateway.com/p***age...38&version=NIV explains.

  17. #67
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    I don't know what commentary your reading but I can tell you one thing .....if that commentary is telling you that the darkness of the book of *** is not the very same darkness listed in the book of genesis then it is in error..

    The darkness is the same darkness in both books.

  18. #68
    alanmolstad
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    the source for all the LIght is giving us in Genesis 1:1 the heavens

  19. #69
    alanmolstad
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    oh and I'm at work so I just don't have the time right now to dig into the commentaries and find out what the heck is going on but I'll give it a look when I get home

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    The clouds and darkness are being described as a garment for the sea. The commentary ***ociated with the verses you referenced from https://www.biblegateway.com/p***age...38&version=NIV explains.
    Im finally home and I have the free time to check out your link...BUT, for some reason it does not work for me?????

  21. #71
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    well......I have not seen any new posts , so to keep the topic advancing I think I should post a comment that deals with a whole bunch of issues and see if that might get a response or two...LOL


    The thing Im asking people to try is that i want them to just allow the Genesis story to simply and clearly tell us what it has to say.
    And, I'm also asking people to stop adding things to the text .

    What I see going on is that in an effort to maintain these teachings in a Young Earth, and to fight against the teachings of Evolution, there are many Bible students that have gotten themselves swept-up in the use of bad bible study habits.

    I first noticed this when after I attended an 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by Ken Ham personally, I noticed that many of the things we had been taught that support Young Earth Creationism simply did not come from the Bible.

    I also noticed that while many YEC believers claimed to be supporting a "literal" interpretation of the Genesis story, But the real facts are that they twisting things around, they adding new meanings that are totally out of context, they are subconsciously replacing words found in the text with their own words that back-up what they want the Bible to teach!

    Young Earth Creationism seemed to me to be more an "invention" pulled out of thin air rather than the literal interpretation of the Scriptures that was being claimed.

    The Genesis story reads completely normal to me, and there is no need to invent things to make the story work.
    There is no need to invent a "sourceless light, nor try to blame the light onto "god" when we read right at the start that God had created the source for all the light in the story.

    And that source of the Genesis light is still the same source for the light we see today!

    So there is no need to struggle to explain the light source at all......
    The light was just normal light, and the source of that light was just a normal physical source that is still around today.


    The Bible teaches that the first things God created was the "heavens"
    This therefore gives us all the "source' for the light we will need in a moment.

    So right off the bat was have a physical "source" for the "let there be light" verse that appears in a moment.

    God is NOT the source for the Light in Genesis...

    We read that the Spirit of God is hovering above the waters.
    This give us out "point of view" as we read the rest of the story...the point of view is an "earthbound point of view"

    Taking the correct POV We are not up in space as we read this story, we are hovering above the water, looking up at the sky.

    The "waters appear right away in the Genesis story but are we to believe that the earth was created "wet"?.....NO.

    The water that fills the seas came forth from underground as we read in Genesis 2 and at *** 38

    So the earth was created "dry"and only later saw the introduction of water.

    There is nothing in the Genesis or the rest of the whole Bible story that bans animals death before the sin of Adam.

    Adam was not created in the garden.

    The topic on the 4th day is NOT the creation of the sun.

    The topic is only the greater light that now is seen on the earth.
    The sun was made at Genesis 1:1......but the thick clouds talked about at *** 38 have thinned enough to see the dim light of the stars on the 4th day.....

    and regardless of what it may say in your translation, the Bible does not actually say that God "made the stars" on the 4th day.
    Thats an addition by some editors, placed into the text only because it fit into preconceived Young Earth teachings....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-21-2014 at 04:38 AM.

  22. #72
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    My personal conclusions?

    I believe that the Genesis story works hand-in-hand with evolution.

    I believe the Text supports the idea that the universe is billions of years old.

    I believe that even the account of the creation of man fits within the teachings of evolution.

    I believe the word "day"in Genesis has many meanings, and among the meanings supported by the Genesis text is the idea that a "day" can talk to us about an unknown amount of time....

    I believe that the first 6 days of the Creation week all have nice clear endings, and this points us to the fact that in the Bible there is not even a hint that the 7th day of the creation week has had an ending.

    I believe that right now, as we have this conversation, we are still in the middle of the 7th day of the creation week....




    another conclusion I have come to is that some YEC believers simply will refuse to open their Bibles and read what is says in black and white once they start to discover what the text actually says there.

    The very first time I stood up in my Sunday school cl*** and asked (following the ORIGINS cl*** taught by Ken Ham) I asled the cl***, "What does the Bible say God created first "In the beginning"?.....I ran into some people that after checking the text , would not answer that question.

    I ran into people that wanted to defend their YEC ideas so baddy that they would close their bible in front of me and tell me, "I dont care what it says there Alan, I know what it means".

    The conclusion I came to after seeing this type of thing happen over and over is that There is none so blind as he who shuts his eyes and will not see....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-21-2014 at 05:07 AM.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    My personal conclusions?

    I believe that the Genesis story works hand-in-hand with evolution.

    I believe the Text supports the idea that the universe is billions of years old.

    I believe that even the account of the creation of man fits within the teachings of evolution.

    I believe the word "day"in Genesis has many meanings, and among the meanings supported by the Genesis text is the idea that a "day" can talk to us about an unknown amount of time....

    I believe that the first 6 days of the Creation week all have nice clear endings, and this points us to the fact that in the Bible there is not even a hint that the 7th day of the creation week has had an ending.

    I believe that right now, as we have this conversation, we are still in the middle of the 7th day of the creation week....




    another conclusion I have come to is that some YEC believers simply will refuse to open their Bibles and read what is says in black and white once they start to discover what the text actually says there.

    The very first time I stood up in my Sunday school cl*** and asked (following the ORIGINS cl*** taught by Ken Ham) I asled the cl***, "What does the Bible say God created first "In the beginning"?.....I ran into some people that after checking the text , would not answer that question.

    I ran into people that wanted to defend their YEC ideas so baddy that they would close their bible in front of me and tell me, "I dont care what it says there Alan, I know what it means".

    The conclusion I came to after seeing this type of thing happen over and over is that There is none so blind as he who shuts his eyes and will not see....
    Hi Alan,

    I can understand your position on Genesis 1:1, although I don't totally agree with some of your conclusions but we do agree that God did indeed create the heavens and the earth. But where is your Biblical evidence for the evolution of man. I don't want to put words in your mouth but do you believe man evolved from apes? Genesis tells us how God created man, the theory of evolution adds to the text, something which you seem to be against. Will you comment?

  24. #74
    alanmolstad
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    okay I'll be posting something on that real soon

  25. #75
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    notice that I said that evolution and Genesis work hand in hand with each other I did not say that Genesis teaches evolution nor do I find evolution in the text of the Bible for what I have said is it the two concepts do work hand in hand with each other to give us a more rounded understanding of history they are not in contradiction although they do not say the very same
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-21-2014 at 07:48 AM.

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