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Thread: Why to NOT take Genesis literally.

  1. #126
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    You want me to turn a blind eye to ......

    Im just asking questions.....


    There is no eye-blinding intended here.

    Just one guy asking a few questions and looking forward to what answers other people get when they open the Bible for themselves and look for the answers?






    But I think I understand what is really going on in your mind here,
    I think anyone watching this conversation has figured out what all this reluctance to answer my questions must be based on.

    You know Im right about what the Bible says in Genesis.

    And I think any honest Bible student is smart enough to have looked at my questions and right away came to the same conclusion about what Im talking about.
    That conclusion is that "Alan is right"




    Nothing Im saying is my own idea.
    This understanding of what the bible actually says compared to what the YEC teachers have been teaching it says has been known for a long time.

    I believe you have also known this for a while too..
    Your actions, the way you try so hard to try to slide-around the questions I have asked points me to this conclusion about you.



    But lets move on,

    Lets deal with my 3 questions today , and get to the heart of what Im pointing to by asking them, and why the believers in Young Earth Creationism are clearly so afraid to address my questions in an honest way?


    Over the years I have asked the same basic questions to people that believed I was wrong, and if they are a true believer in the YEC teachings, they will always try to dodge-around my questions..

    Always...

    They never want to allow themselves to risk opening their Bibles and giving me an honest answer
    And why do I think this is so?..........the answer is, They don't want to take the Red Pill.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7PKRjrid4

    They are concerned that the moment they open their Bible and attempt to answer my question honestly with only the Text they will forever know in their hearts that what Im saying is the truth.

    They are afraid to see the real truth about the story of Genesis, because they also know that must mean that YEC is a lie that has worked it's way into the church and blinded people to what the Bible actually says.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 04-03-2016 at 09:14 AM.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    In the genesis account, is the earth created as a dead, dry world as taught by science?.....or was the earth created with seas already covering the land?
    Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2 give different accounts of this.

    Genesis 1-- In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.... And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    (After this, on the 6th day-man was created.)

    Genesis 2--These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
    And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
    But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    There are some who believe that Moses took two different accounts and combined them which is why it seems different from chapter 1 to chapter 2.

    In the end, if you blend the two, then earth was created first (ground, dirt) and then water second. In fact, in chapter 2, it appears that first the ground was created, then seeds were planted, and then the earth was watered--much like we would make a garden.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  3. #128
    alanmolstad
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    I'm out in my shop right now working with the coal forge...but in a bit I will take a break and post...

  4. #129
    alanmolstad
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    Im so cold right now...I can hardly type my fingers are so cold.
    i was outside working and it was snowing....thats how cold it is here.

    So I may have to warm up a bit before I get too deep into how Genesis 1 works with genesis 2...

    But the short answer is that there is no disagreement between Genesis 1 and 2...
    However Genesis 2 does drop back in the story and fill-in a few important details in the creation story.

    genesis 2 does carefully set the stage here,when it talks about the time setting of the story its going to be dealing with.

    its a time in the creation week that was " when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.


    so we know we are going to be dealing with a moment in the story that comes after Genesis 1:1...for it says "when they were created"...so the Heavens and the earth are created.
    as we have already learned, the term "heavens"refers to the stars, like our own sun, so we are going to be dealing with a point in earth's history that comes after the creation of the sun and stars, and the earth as well...

    then the text adds, " Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up,


    lets drop back and find out when plants were created ?

    Genesis 1 : 11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation:
    And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

    So now we know we are going to be dealing with a point in the creation story that comes before day 3...


    Next it says-
    "or the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth"

    when is the first listing of water on the earth in the genesis story?
    "darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.



    So we are now getting a clear idea that we are going to be talking about a moment in earth's history that happens after the earth was created, but before the "waters" talked about in Genesis 1:1 had appeared...

    So this is going to be very early in earth's history.



    Now as I said, Genesis 2 is a part of the story that drops back to fill-in some important details of the story that have not been shown yet.
    One such thing now is listed and it has to do with the "waters" that were talked about at genesis 1

    We are now going to learn where the "waters" came from that covered the earth at the start of the genesis story.

    but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground

    So now we learn that the water that covered the earth at the start of the story actually came from inside the earth.
    The translation i posted here says the words "streams" but another correct wording is "a mist"




    So Genesis 1 and genesis 2 are in agreement...with genesis 2 filling in details that we need to more clearly understand the full story.

  5. #130
    alanmolstad
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    So what does it all mean?

    The answer is, that the Bible is teaching us that the earth was created as a dead and dry world....and that all the water on the earth came from underground.

    and this is where the water talked about at genesis 1:1 (the deep, the waters) came from.





    and oh by the way, this is in agreement with where science tells us water came from too by the way....
    So there is nothing here so far that stands against science.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So what does it all mean?

    The answer is, that the Bible is teaching us that the earth was created as a dead and dry world....and that all the water on the earth came from underground.

    and this is where the water talked about at genesis 1:1 (the deep, the waters) came from.





    and oh by the way, this is in agreement with where science tells us water came from too by the way....
    So there is nothing here so far that stands against science.
    Your point? I have never disagreed with science and the Bible being congruent. But if it wasn't--this would not matter as well. Science isn't infallible and the Bible is not explicit on exactly how the earth is created. We are not given the details.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  7. #132
    alanmolstad
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    oh,,,I hope I did not make it seem like I thought you disagreed with science...

    But trust me....others, even within my own church family ,do strongly feel that science disagrees...
    Most of my comments are aimed at such a issue.....

    Im actually relieved to understand your position now more clearly.

  8. #133
    alanmolstad
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    in the opening of Genesis we read that there was "darkness" on the earth...
    Well tomorrow I will address the question of why the earth was in darkness if we know at the start of the story God had already made the sun and stars.

    Why was the earth in darkness if there was a sun burning bright in the sky


    We will learn what the bible teaches as to why this happened.

  9. #134
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Let's suppose that I am a person reading the bible and I read Isaiah 53, I read John 3:16, I read Romans 10:9-10, I read Ephesians 2:8-9.
    I read other scripture and realize by conviction of the Holy Spirit that I am a sinner and need a savior. By what I have read and believed in
    the scriptures and by the measure of faith and grace I receive from God, I confess my sins, repent and receive Christ as my Savior. I have
    been led to salvation by the truth of scripture.
    Now suppose I am the same person reading the book of Genesis, the same true scriptures that led me to eternal life. I have no science
    book, no copy of Darwin's Origin of Species. What scripture would suggest or lead me to believe that man evolved from an ape for
    "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
    Hello Disciple.

    For those who rejoice in the truth by faith knows none at all. For those who teach this even to be considered, fall into a condition of worse than no scripture at all. For those who submit themselves to seduction donít lead, would rather not have to deal, and donít understand that way of faith, but would rather put portions of II Timothy 3:16 to fable rather than the rugged fact of truth.

    Love leads us to ďendureĒ the scope of Godís will. (I Cor 13:7)

    Glory to God!

    Mike.
    .

  10. #135
    alanmolstad
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    2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


    I will now be going over this "darkness" talked about at Genesis 1:2 and giving to you the Bible's reasons for why the earth is said to be in this Darkness.

    Lets first take this slow, and find out what we just read and what it means?


    2 Now the earth "
    So at this point, the earth is already created, its real.



    was formless
    .the word suggests a foggy murkiness to the form of the earth.
    So the earth is very real, its a solid world, but for some unknown reason its form is hard to see...
    The example I give my Bible students, is that you are on a road in a thick fog, and you hear a large truck coming at you.
    You hear it drawing closer and closer,you know the truck is very real,but you cant see it yet.





    and empty, this words means simply uninhabited ...so no people yet.



    darkness was over the surface of the deep,
    the words "the deep"can only refer in the bible to a large body of water...so this tells us that the earth has great seas, and is perhaps totally covered by water at this point in earth history.
    We will get to this word "darkness "in a moment.
    But what we have now seen is the writer of our genesis story getting us all up to speed as to the true setting he paints for the rest of the story.






    and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    >...this is perhaps the most important part of the early Genesis story , for it gives the reader the POV,the Point Of View of the witness to the events that are about to be talked about in the story.

    The POV we are to take is that of the Spirit of God, who is said to be "hovering"over the water.

    This is very important, for it informs us how to view all the rest of the genesis story.
    Far too many of us read the Genesis story from the mental POV of a spaceman ,looking down at the earth from the Space-station.

    Thats an error.

    The Bibles POV is an earthly POV.
    We are to take the POV of the Spirit Of God that is hovering just over the top of the water that covers the whole earth.


    Now that we understand what the Bible has taught us about the story so far,and the POV we areto have in our minds as we read on, ,we are now ready to look at the question, "Why was the earth dark if the sun was already created at genesis 1:1?"
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 04-04-2016 at 04:58 AM.

  11. #136
    alanmolstad
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    the "darkness" found at the start of the genesis story is caused by the thick clouds talked about at *** 38


    Its that simple.







    it was dark over the waters at the start of the genesis story only because there were very thick clouds at the time.
    As the clouds thinned, you were able to see the difference .
    First you would notice the difference between Day and Night.
    Then you would notice the moon
    and then finally as all the thick clouds thinned out you would notice lastly the dim lights of the stars in the night sky.


    thats all that is being talked about happening on Day 4

  12. #137
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    the "darkness" found at the start of the genesis story is caused by the thick clouds talked about at *** 38


    Its that simple.







    it was dark over the waters at the start of the genesis story only because there were very thick clouds at the time.
    As the clouds thinned, you were able to see the difference .
    First you would notice the difference between Day and Night.
    Then you would notice the moon
    and then finally as all the thick clouds thinned out you would notice lastly the dim lights of the stars in the night sky.


    thats all that is being talked about happening on Day 4
    .....and thats the way it is....

  13. #138
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    the "darkness" found at the start of the genesis story is caused by the thick clouds talked about at *** 38


    Its that simple.







    it was dark over the waters at the start of the genesis story only because there were very thick clouds at the time.
    As the clouds thinned, you were able to see the difference .
    First you would notice the difference between Day and Night.
    Then you would notice the moon
    and then finally as all the thick clouds thinned out you would notice lastly the dim lights of the stars in the night sky.


    thats all that is being talked about happening on Day 4
    .....and thats the way it is....

  14. #139
    alanmolstad
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    I should really collect all my posts on this topic and put it into a book!
    I believe I have helped a lot of people understand how to read the creation story and to see that there is nothing in the Text that is actually against science or evolution.

  15. #140
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I should really collect all my posts on this topic and put it into a book!
    I believe I have helped a lot of people understand how to read the creation story and to see that there is nothing in the Text that is actually against science or evolution.
    Perhaps when you write that book you will have a chapter where you finally answer many of the good,
    reasonable questions that have been directed to you, such as;

    Let's suppose that I am a person reading the bible and I read Isaiah 53, I read John 3:16, I read Romans 10:9-10, I read Ephesians 2:8-9.
    I read other scripture and realize by conviction of the Holy Spirit that I am a sinner and need a savior. By what I have read and believed in
    the scriptures and by the measure of faith and grace I receive from God, I confess my sins, repent and receive Christ as my Savior. I have
    been led to salvation by the truth of scripture.
    Now suppose I am the same person reading the book of Genesis, the same true scriptures that led me to eternal life. I have no science
    book, no copy of Darwin's Origin of Species. What scripture would suggest or lead me to believe that man evolved from an ape for
    "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

  16. #141
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Perhaps when you write that book you will have a chapter where you finally answer many of the good,
    reasonable questions that have been directed to you, such as;

    Let's suppose that I am a person reading the bible and I read Isaiah 53, I read John 3:16, I read Romans 10:9-10, I read Ephesians 2:8-9.
    I read other scripture and realize by conviction of the Holy Spirit that I am a sinner and need a savior. By what I have read and believed in
    the scriptures and by the measure of faith and grace I receive from God, I confess my sins, repent and receive Christ as my Savior. I have
    been led to salvation by the truth of scripture.
    Now suppose I am the same person reading the book of Genesis, the same true scriptures that led me to eternal life. I have no science
    book, no copy of Darwin's Origin of Species. What scripture would suggest or lead me to believe that man evolved from an ape for
    "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
    I think you forgot the part with the ending question mark - "?"

    The use of a question mark will make it a lot more easy for me to understand what question or issue you want me to address...

  17. #142
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I think you forgot the part with the ending question mark - "?"

    The use of a question mark will make it a lot more easy for me to understand what question or issue you want me to address...
    "Now suppose I am the same person reading the book of Genesis, the same true scriptures that led me to eternal life. I have no science
    book, no copy of Darwin's Origin of Species. What scripture would suggest or lead me to believe that man evolved from an ape?"

  18. #143
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    What scripture would suggest or lead me to believe that man evolved from an ape[/COLOR] for
    .....
    again, I think you might want to review what i have said...

    Have I ever said that evolution is "taught" in the Bible?


    no?

    Then what have I said then?

    Only this: That the text of Genesis tells a story that works with and walks hand-in-hand with science and the teachings of evolution.



    How does it do that?
    The answer is to look at the text and ask yourself, "Where is life from?"


    The answer you get is that all life on this earth is from the earth itself. *
    We are part of this earth that has come to life.
    The final point of origin, the place where we are 'from" is the earth.

    This is true for both humans, as well as the great apes.

    There is no difference in our starting point , and the starting point of any of the animals.
    We all share a common origin point, and common starting point where we all came forth from.



    This is true in Genesis, as it is true in Evolution!


    The starting point matches....the starting point is held in common between evolution and genesis.


    Now when you put this agreement with science, next to the agreement with science we see in how the earth was created and how it is said to happen in Genesis, you find that there is nothing at all to get upset about when teachers of science and evolution come in to the church to teach on our origins...

    For all that we see currently taught in science has no disagreement with what the Bible teaches us about that same time in early earth's history...



    So if the science behind evolution is not being disagreed with by the Bible, then I dont feel the need to disagree with it too!



    Case-closed....




    * Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth ...
    12 And the earth brought forth...
    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth...
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 12-30-2016 at 06:42 AM.

  19. #144
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    again, I think you might want to review what i have said...

    Have I ever said that evolution is "taught" in the Bible?


    no?

    Then what have I said then?

    Only this: That the text of Genesis tells a story that works with and walks hand-in-hand with science and the teachings of evolution.



    How does it do that?
    The answer is to look at the text and ask yourself, "Where is life from?"


    The answer you get is that all life on this earth is from the earth itself. *
    We are part of this earth that has come to life.
    The final point of origin, the place where we are 'from" is the earth.

    This is true for both humans, as well as the great apes.

    There is no difference in our starting point , and the starting point of any of the animals.
    We all share a common origin point, and common starting point where we all came forth from.



    This is true in Genesis, as it is true in Evolution!


    The starting point matches....the starting point is held in common between evolution and genesis.


    Now when you put this agreement with science, next to the agreement with science we see in how the earth was created and how it is said to happen in Genesis, you find that there is nothing at all to get upset about when teachers of science and evolution come in to the church to teach on our origins...

    For all that we see currently taught in science has no disagreement with what the Bible teaches us about that same time in early earth's history...



    So if the science behind evolution is not being disagreed with by the Bible, then I dont feel the need to disagree with it too!



    Case-closed....




    * Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth ...
    12 And the earth brought forth...
    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth...
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    Aside from what your personal opinion is, can you answer this question yes or no? Is there any scripture that would suggest or lead me to believe that man evolved from an ape?

  20. #145
    alanmolstad
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    Again, the Bible does not teach evolution...

    but then again, nor many other teachings of science or stuff like that...LOL


    But what you find true is that what the bible does say actually works with evolution and the teachings of science..

    So while it might not teach some concept of modern science, you also dont find the Bible teachings against science.

    This then is shown in the Bible verses i listed at the bottom of my post above.

    the listed bible verses are there to show you the answer to your question , for they show us that the text of the Bible does trace back humans and the great apes to a common source.

  21. #146
    alanmolstad
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    its kinda the "round-and-round " that I see on this topic all the time.

    i try to tell people at the start that the Bible, "Does not teach evolution, it just teaches ideas that work well next to evolution"

    and yet I always get back, "Show me where the Bible teaches evolution?"

  22. #147
    alanmolstad
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    there are many things that are not talked about in the Bible...there are many topics the Text of the Bible does not address...

    But just because the Bible does not clearly address an issue, this should not be understood as meaning that the Bible was 'against" such ideas.


    The teachings of evolution came about over time and are the product of lots and lots of study on this earth's life.
    So its silly to open the Bible and think that the text will clearly address some point of science that was not discovered until hundreds if not thousands of years after the scriptures were written.

    But we also should understand that while things like "science" and "religion" are products of men's study, the "Universe" and the "Bible" are products of God's mind.


    So men can raise and ask many questions in the world of science and religion that are not addressed in the Bible at all.....
    There is no limit to the topics that you can not find a clear teaching on in the Bible.....thats just a given.


    But what we do find in the Bible does agree with what we find in the universe.
    This is because both the Bible and the universe have the same creator...the same mind behind their creation.


    And so I dont think any Christian should become all "crazy and upset" at the idea that Evolution walks with Genesis, after all if Evolution is true, one would expect there to be such agreement right?

  23. #148
    alanmolstad
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    so to review:

    According to the teaching of Evolution, all life (Both human and animal) can be traced back to the final source...and that source is the Earth itself.

    The story of Genesis teaches the very same thing.

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  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christodoulos View Post
    you may be on to something. All the more reason to fight the swindlers in the Answersingenesis crowd.
    And exactly WHAT makes them 'swindlers?' WHO did they swindle out of WHAT? WHEN and WHERE?

    Instead of casting such disparagement, perhaps you could CITE something specifically?

    BTW the 'solid dome' theory is completely speculative and has NO SUBSTANTIVE SUPPORT anywhere.

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