Eternal Security

[Saxon]

Can those born of God leave Christ?
1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (were never saved)
John indicates here that leaving indicates that one had never been born of God.

Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.

Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?
1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. I think you are confusing living a sinful lifestyle with stumbling and committing a sin occasionally.

John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.





John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.
Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

[Saxon]

1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.

As I have said before, there is no means of determining if the ones that “left us” were the lost remaining lost or the saved reverting to their old ways such as departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)The text simply does not reveal that.

All you have for your position is OSAS is true; therefore the ones that left were never saved, circular reasoning. You are relying on an unstable doctrine to prove the Bible statement. OSAS is unstable because it is too contentious.

My position favours the idea that it is the saved returning to their old ways and departing from the living God. Fact: they were with the believers or they could not have gone out from them. You have to be at a place in order to leave it.

Once they had changed their minds they were “not of us”. Once they were not of us, they were antichrist. That is what you are if you are not a Christian and if you depart from the living God, you are no longer a Christian.

Still it is all speculation and that is why it is not a verse that will determine the truth of OSAS.

Is a “false brethren” really any kind of brethren to a Christian??

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

All you need to do is look closely at John 15:1 and 2. Jesus is speaking. Jesus is the vine. The Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me (Jesus) that beareth not fruit he (the Father) taketh away. You cannot be in Christ Jesus and not be a Christian. All the branches, without exception, are Christians. Every branch in Christ Jesus that does not bear fruit, the husbandman (the Father) takes away. You have ignored the first two verses of John 15 to believe what you have said. OSAS is crushed.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[disciple]

Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

[Saxon]

Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Let's begin with a few facts:
.

1. There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
2. There are many such verses in the Bible
3. There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
4. There are other similar verses in the Bible
5. God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
6. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
7. God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
8. Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
9. Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote Romans 9:13 as a support for the Reformed position.
.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated

.
Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.

[Saxon]

Let's begin with a few facts:
.


1.There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
2.There are many such verses in the Bible
3.There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
4.There are other similar verses in the Bible
5.God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
6.The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
7.God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
8.Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
9.Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

Not only do I see it, I agree with it for the most part. You have contradictions in quotation marks. I will ***ume that you realize that there are no real contradiction in the Bible.

For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote as a support for the Reformed position.
.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
.
Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.

Romans 9:13 is a quote from Malachi 1:2 and 3. This is dealing with the decedents of Jacob and Esau. God is not saying that he hated the person of Esau from Genesis but what his decedents turned into. Hebrews 12:16 is referring to Esau from Genesis.

Hebrews 6:6 speaks of falling away and Hebrews 12:12 to 17 speaks of the lame being turned out of the way, failing the grace of God being defiled being a fornicator and profane, and in the end, rejection.

There is nothing here that seems to support OSAS.


Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there. In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No. Would He trick us or leave out information? No. Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.
Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No. My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there.

I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.

In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No.

God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.

Would He trick us or leave out information? No.

God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.

[b]Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.[b/]

If that was the case there would be none saved, none

Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No.

God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.





God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.





God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.





If that was the case there would be none saved, none





God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.





This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

[Saxon]

I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

[disciple]

Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

[Saxon]

Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

Directly after verses 2 to 4 Peter waded in with verses 8 to 10, warning us to make sure of our calling and election. Peter did not preach or teach OSAS.

He has enabled us to escape corruption by his power and through his word. If we do not obey his word we will take our selves away from his protection, just as the lost sheep that would have died away from the shepherd’s protection if he had not been found. The sheep was really lost.

Yes we life by faith in the Son of God. If your faith is turned away from Christ by the deception of seducing spirits (See 1Timothy 4:1) and you fail to give diligence to make your calling and election sure The results can become disastrous to lose of salvation.

There is nothing to indicate that we are trapped in the Christian walk. Galatians 2:20 states that we live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God. This verse in no way negates the warnings in 2 Peter 1:10 and 1Timothy 4:1 or any other that I have mentioned during the time that we have been discussing this subject. You as a believer do have responsibilities that only you can do. We were not saved to become stagnate and just go with the folw. We are under specific directions as how ti live a Christian life. If we do not want to do what he asks of us we will become the fruitless vine in John 15:1 and 2.

Notice that Galatians was written to people that Paul was concerned that they were already fallen from Christ. See the last Galatians references, Paul was not preaching OSAS.

2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

You stated, “True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves”. Where in scripture does that statement or any statement indicate that true adopted sons do not walk away? That is in direct conflict with Hebrews 3:12. How do illegitimate fakers always reveal themselves?

There is no doubt that there are those that claim to be Christians but are not and those that teach false doctrine. There are some Christians that do teach false doctrines but for the most part the rest are not Christians and are not part of the discussion.

Those are good verses that are true, but in reality they do not say anything that has to do with OSAS being true.


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

Yes, God has done it all for us as far as salvation goes. Getting from death to life (saved) is a gift from God. The term “grace” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “gift” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “not of works” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Getting saved is one event that happens in the process of becoming a Christian. After you get saved you are expected to be the Christian that God created you to be. This includes works. (See Ephesians 2:10) We are clearly told that we have been created in Christ Jesus to do good works. This is an obligation that we have to God. WE are to do the good works in order to produce fruit. If we do not produce fruit, according to John 15:1 and 2 the father will remove us.

See my answer to JohnT about what eternal life is. These verses that you have posted here say nothing about OSAS. The quoted verses tell us that God loves the lost as well as the saved. If he didn’t love the lost then there would be no one saved. The verses also tell us about salvation that occurs before we are required to do works.

Getting saved is a gift of God but living the Christian live is something that the saved are required to do.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.