Eternal Security

[disciple]

This is why we can have ***urance even though we stumble.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

[Saxon]

This is why we can have ***urance even though we stumble.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

Saxon you miss the point, the saved do remain faithful.
I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” This verse is very clear. John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all. He is stressing if they had been saved they would still be with us. The proof of the believer is his continuance. False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued.

[Saxon]

Saxon you miss the point, the saved do remain faithful.
I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” This verse is very clear. John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all. He is stressing if they had been saved they would still be with us. The proof of the believer is his continuance. False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued.

“John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all.” How do you know this? The text does not say if they were lost remaining lost or if they were saved and departed from the loving God. "They went out from us, but they were not of us" only indicates that at the time of departure they were “not of us”.

The only way that there is to say what you are saying is to believe OSAS is true, therefore they were never saved. This is circular reasoning. You have to prove that OSAS is true. Up to this point you have not proven any such thing. It is up to you to explain what the following few verses really mean in the light of OSAS.


Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

As long as there are verses like this in the Old and New Testament there is no room to even think that OSAS is even viable to be related to the Bible let alone be found in the Bible. It is your turn to explain scripture in support of your belief in OSAS. Start with some of these.

“False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued”. What?? What has a false professor to fall out from? Think about it, if they were not real then they were never there to fall out in the first place.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

“John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all.” How do you know this? The text does not say if they were lost remaining lost or if they were saved and departed from the loving God. "They went out from us, but they were not of us" only indicates that at the time of departure they were “not of us”.

The only way that there is to say what you are saying is to believe OSAS is true, therefore they were never saved. This is circular reasoning. You have to prove that OSAS is true. Up to this point you have not proven any such thing. It is up to you to explain what the following few verses really mean in the light of OSAS.


Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

As long as there are verses like this in the Old and New Testament there is no room to even think that OSAS is even viable to be related to the Bible let alone be found in the Bible. It is your turn to explain scripture in support of your belief in OSAS. Start with some of these.

“False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued”. What?? What has a false professor to fall out from? Think about it, if they were not real then they were never there to fall out in the first place.

Can those born of God leave Christ?
1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (were never saved)
John indicates here that leaving indicates that one had never been born of God.

Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?
1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. I think you are confusing living a sinful lifestyle with stumbling and committing a sin occasionally.

[Saxon]

Can those born of God leave Christ?
1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (were never saved)
John indicates here that leaving indicates that one had never been born of God.

Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.

Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?
1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. I think you are confusing living a sinful lifestyle with stumbling and committing a sin occasionally.

John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.





John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.
Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

[Saxon]

1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.

As I have said before, there is no means of determining if the ones that “left us” were the lost remaining lost or the saved reverting to their old ways such as departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)The text simply does not reveal that.

All you have for your position is OSAS is true; therefore the ones that left were never saved, circular reasoning. You are relying on an unstable doctrine to prove the Bible statement. OSAS is unstable because it is too contentious.

My position favours the idea that it is the saved returning to their old ways and departing from the living God. Fact: they were with the believers or they could not have gone out from them. You have to be at a place in order to leave it.

Once they had changed their minds they were “not of us”. Once they were not of us, they were antichrist. That is what you are if you are not a Christian and if you depart from the living God, you are no longer a Christian.

Still it is all speculation and that is why it is not a verse that will determine the truth of OSAS.

Is a “false brethren” really any kind of brethren to a Christian??

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

All you need to do is look closely at John 15:1 and 2. Jesus is speaking. Jesus is the vine. The Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me (Jesus) that beareth not fruit he (the Father) taketh away. You cannot be in Christ Jesus and not be a Christian. All the branches, without exception, are Christians. Every branch in Christ Jesus that does not bear fruit, the husbandman (the Father) takes away. You have ignored the first two verses of John 15 to believe what you have said. OSAS is crushed.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[disciple]

Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

[Saxon]

Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Let's begin with a few facts:
.

1. There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
2. There are many such verses in the Bible
3. There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
4. There are other similar verses in the Bible
5. God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
6. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
7. God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
8. Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
9. Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote Romans 9:13 as a support for the Reformed position.
.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated

.
Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.

[Saxon]

Let's begin with a few facts:
.


1.There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
2.There are many such verses in the Bible
3.There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
4.There are other similar verses in the Bible
5.God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
6.The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
7.God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
8.Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
9.Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

Not only do I see it, I agree with it for the most part. You have contradictions in quotation marks. I will ***ume that you realize that there are no real contradiction in the Bible.

For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote as a support for the Reformed position.
.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
.
Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.

Romans 9:13 is a quote from Malachi 1:2 and 3. This is dealing with the decedents of Jacob and Esau. God is not saying that he hated the person of Esau from Genesis but what his decedents turned into. Hebrews 12:16 is referring to Esau from Genesis.

Hebrews 6:6 speaks of falling away and Hebrews 12:12 to 17 speaks of the lame being turned out of the way, failing the grace of God being defiled being a fornicator and profane, and in the end, rejection.

There is nothing here that seems to support OSAS.


Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there. In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No. Would He trick us or leave out information? No. Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.
Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No. My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there.

I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.

In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No.

God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.

Would He trick us or leave out information? No.

God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.

[b]Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.[b/]

If that was the case there would be none saved, none

Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No.

God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.





God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.





God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.





If that was the case there would be none saved, none





God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.





This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

[Saxon]

I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

[disciple]

Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

[Saxon]

Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

Directly after verses 2 to 4 Peter waded in with verses 8 to 10, warning us to make sure of our calling and election. Peter did not preach or teach OSAS.

He has enabled us to escape corruption by his power and through his word. If we do not obey his word we will take our selves away from his protection, just as the lost sheep that would have died away from the shepherd’s protection if he had not been found. The sheep was really lost.

Yes we life by faith in the Son of God. If your faith is turned away from Christ by the deception of seducing spirits (See 1Timothy 4:1) and you fail to give diligence to make your calling and election sure The results can become disastrous to lose of salvation.

There is nothing to indicate that we are trapped in the Christian walk. Galatians 2:20 states that we live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God. This verse in no way negates the warnings in 2 Peter 1:10 and 1Timothy 4:1 or any other that I have mentioned during the time that we have been discussing this subject. You as a believer do have responsibilities that only you can do. We were not saved to become stagnate and just go with the folw. We are under specific directions as how ti live a Christian life. If we do not want to do what he asks of us we will become the fruitless vine in John 15:1 and 2.

Notice that Galatians was written to people that Paul was concerned that they were already fallen from Christ. See the last Galatians references, Paul was not preaching OSAS.

2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

You stated, “True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves”. Where in scripture does that statement or any statement indicate that true adopted sons do not walk away? That is in direct conflict with Hebrews 3:12. How do illegitimate fakers always reveal themselves?

There is no doubt that there are those that claim to be Christians but are not and those that teach false doctrine. There are some Christians that do teach false doctrines but for the most part the rest are not Christians and are not part of the discussion.

Those are good verses that are true, but in reality they do not say anything that has to do with OSAS being true.


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

Yes, God has done it all for us as far as salvation goes. Getting from death to life (saved) is a gift from God. The term “grace” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “gift” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “not of works” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Getting saved is one event that happens in the process of becoming a Christian. After you get saved you are expected to be the Christian that God created you to be. This includes works. (See Ephesians 2:10) We are clearly told that we have been created in Christ Jesus to do good works. This is an obligation that we have to God. WE are to do the good works in order to produce fruit. If we do not produce fruit, according to John 15:1 and 2 the father will remove us.

See my answer to JohnT about what eternal life is. These verses that you have posted here say nothing about OSAS. The quoted verses tell us that God loves the lost as well as the saved. If he didn’t love the lost then there would be no one saved. The verses also tell us about salvation that occurs before we are required to do works.

Getting saved is a gift of God but living the Christian live is something that the saved are required to do.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

That is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

That is NOT what Jude says.


Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

It becomes obvious that we are kept if we continue in the faith. We are not saved to become stagnate in our lives. As Christians we are expected to be the Christians that God has created us to be, in Christ Jesus. This requires us to remain in the faith (See Acts 14:22, Colossians 1:23 and 1 Timothy 2:15)

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It becomes obvious that we are kept if we continue in the faith.

That is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
That is NOT what Jude says.

We are not saved to become stagnate in our lives. As Christians we are expected to be the Christians that God has created us to be, in Christ Jesus. This requires us to remain in the faith (See Acts 14:22, Colossians 1:23 and 1 Timothy 2:15)

You are creating a RED HERRING because that is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends. The simple fact of the matter is that you seem to be creating an either/or situation when in fact the situation is REALLY both/and. This is what I mean by stating you are not looking at the whole council of God.

NOW can you see what I am saying?

[Saxon]

You are creating a RED HERRING because that is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends

You are the one that is not using the whole council of God. You seem to think that if a real warning is there that speaks against OSAS the warning now turns into something that is not a friend. That is a silly thought on your part. If there is a storm and you are driving down the road and the bridge is out and I was to stop you and tell you to turn around because the bridge is out that makes me not a friend? If your friends would let you go through what good is their friendship? It is good for nothing.

Ezekiel 18:24 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Jesus by way of Luke 8:13 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Paul in Romans 11:20 and 21 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. The truth is OSAS is not true.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends. The simple fact of the matter is that you seem to be creating an either/or situation when in fact the situation is REALLY both/and. This is what I mean by stating you are not looking at the whole council of God.

NOW can you see what I am saying?

Jude does not cancel out the rest of the Bible that clearly speaks in total opposition to OSAS You speak of the whole council of God, then I would suggest that you look at the whole council of God. How does he keep you from falling? He provided the scriptures that if you obey them you will not fall. The idea that we are saved and just wait for the sweet by and by because we are not responsible for salvation in any way is just a huge lie from the pit. If you were to look at the whole council of God you would find that we are responsible to have faith in Christ. Faith in Christ does not save us but God saved us by his grace. It is a total gift. After we are saved we are to engage in the good works that we were created in Christ Jesus to do. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) If we do not do what Christians are to do then we will be removed. (See John 15:1 and 2)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[John T]

Hello Saxon

You are making the verses enemies instead of friends.

Can you not see that is a case of "both..., and" instead of "either/ or"? If one does not accept that both the "Calvinist verses" and the "Free Will Baptist verses" are true, and come from the same Author, we neglect to use the whole council of God. Otherwise we wind up by implication that God is schizophrenic and unreliable because He cannot make His thoughts clear, nor can He keep His Covenental promises. Instead it is us, not Him who is unreliable because we are creatures with limited understanding.

No, that is not a nasty accusation, but it is a plea to be more temperate.