Is Election the Only Means of Salvation?

[Saxon]

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

What does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? Has he not chosen us in him before the foundation of the world? No one was in him before the foundation of the world. He would not have to know if any were going to be in Christ he still said that he has blessed us in Christ, he has chosen us in him, we are accepted in the beloved. Even in the video, Walter Martin said that it is “in Christ” and that we had to get there in time.

It is only those that are in Christ are we predestined to anything. Not before salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

.

the answer to the question is to point back to the recording by Walter martin.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B


and to point out my post number #54 above,
reprinted now here -


"Im writing a book right now.
I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
It was the story from the very beginning. "

[Saxon]

So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.

thee answer is this-

Calvin is wrong to say that some are predestined to hell
Arminianism is wrong to say we get to heaven on our own


I listened again to the recording of Dr Martin, and I narrowed down the whole thing to one moment that is centered on the very question you are asking..

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B
Click on the recording at the 5:00 moment and you will here just what I think, as spoken by someone a lot smarter than I am.

[Saxon]

The question was and is, Do YOU believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? You must know what you believe!

[alanmolstad]

so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.


On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


and...

on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.


There is no answer to this dilemma.

People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.






Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL


But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.

[alanmolstad]

now how doi i teach members of my own Bible cl***, how to understand how God can be a sovereign, and have predetermined before the world began who would be with him in Glory, and yet at the same time also have a Christian faith that requires the person to hear and believe in order to be saved?


I try to tell a story that shows how this works in our lives.



You are on a great ship at sea.
the Skipper of the ship is the only one on the ship that has the authority to predetermine where the ship goes.
However the skipper has also granted the p***engers on-board the ship a limited amount of freedom to be able to walk around on the ship's deck.

So you as a p***enger walk out onto the deck, and decide to walk "clockwise",,,and so you have the limited freedom that does allow you to move your legs and walk clockwise around the ship's deck if you want...So you walk to the clockwise.


But the ship you are on is actually headed to the West.
the ship will arrive at the port on time in the west.....your freedom to walk clockwise do not interferer with the travel of the ship at all.

You never lost your limited freedom

You wanted to walk in one direction, and you did.
Its just that while you were doing that, the ship itself was going only in the direction the skipper wanted, regardless of your plans.


So the freedom we enjoy as p***engers can not overpower the command of the Skipper to control the ship.





its the same , with our lives and the sovereignty of God.

we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....

[Saxon]

we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....

Where does it say that God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven? I can show you where God has said that he will predestine those that are in Christ to adoption of children, but you can't show me where God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven. You and Walter have already said that Calvin was wrong on this very point. But you want it both ways when it is convenient.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

But you want it both ways when it is convenient.

Like I said....its a dilemma...thats what the term means!....

Both sides are in error, and are dead wrong.
and have some truth to them at the same time...

[alanmolstad]

so its like Walter Martin says......its a dilemma.

[Saxon]

so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.

So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.

On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


and...

on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.

And respond we must!!

There is no answer to this dilemma.

The answer is, within the sovereignty of God, God has given man a free will that man is responsible to use and for how he uses the free will that God has allowed man to have and use.

People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.

Unfortunately for that theory, I believe in the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.

Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL

I think that you know the verses but you haven’t found the way they work. Just as Walter said “In Christ”. In Christ is the key and being aware of when you actually were “in Christ” is a large clue to when a person is predestined. Listen to Walter again and see if he doesn't say that it happened in real time. Your arrival in Christ is concurrent with salvation.

But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.

It is not how God is God, but how God operates. The sovereignty of God and the free will of man in reality is too easy and no mystery when you believe exactly what Ephesians 1:3 to 7 says.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

[alanmolstad]

yes..... as I said.....both sides of the issue always believe that with "just one more verse" then their side will be seen as being right.....LOL


Both sides are both slightly correct and dead wrong at the same time.....

[Saxon]

So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.

[alanmolstad]

when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?

the answer is...?


The answer is that I predistined the hero to be a spy before I picked up the pen and paper.

The decision was already made...the whole life already planned out fully.
Nothing was left in doubt about the fate of the hero.
The story had yet to be written, but it was already predetermined how it would end for the hero.


its the same with my salvation.....
It was already a done-deal...predetermined, with zero left for chance or me to screw up....


Thats what it means to believe in predestination....that all events are not just 'known" but also planned for,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

[Saxon]

You are not on the same level as the creator of all that is created.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are not on the same level as the creator of all that is created.

Yes, thats why my salvation had to be predetermined, as to not allow me to screw up...LOL

[Saxon]

So your life is a programmed happening and you spend your life mindlessly executing code and following instructions that God has programmed you with.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

So your life is a programmed happening and you spend your life mindlessly executing code and following instructions that God has programmed you with.

LOL......

its like ...."cl***ic"

Tell a Calvinist that I have free Will and they have a cow, and accuse me of wanting to be God.
Tell an Anti-Calvinist that God is Sovereign and they call me a robot.



some people's kids.....

[Saxon]

Then explain yourself so one doesn't reach the robot conclusion. You have a short memory, I also believe that God is Sovereign. Try to remember what you read and try to comprehend it.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You have a short memory, .....

Try to remember what you read and try to comprehend it.

I think we are done here now....

i will post a few more recordings to answer any other questions any might have....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

So your life is a programmed happening and you spend your life mindlessly executing code and following instructions that God has programmed you with.

The answer I teach is found in my story of the p***enger on a great ship.

We always have freedom, yet our freedom never for a moment actually trumps the authority of the Skipper of the ship to direct our lives where he and he alone wants it to go.

[alanmolstad]

So when the Skipper gives a command for the ship to go when He wants it to go, he is not worried about what direction we walk on the ship at the time...
Its all already taken into account.

[alanmolstad]

its the very same in out lives.

before the world began, before the first sun burned in the sky,,,,I was predetermined to be with the Lord forever in glory.
me....personally....

Not just "guys like me......not just believersin general...not just the lucky few who do the right thing in the end...NO!



me personally...

[Saxon]

So you do believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers.