Is Election the Only Means of Salvation?

[Saxon]

That means that you are not the elect until you are in Christ who is the elect.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

That means that you are not the elect until you are in Christ who is the elect.

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How does this fit into your definition?
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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

You seem to be saying that we are saved before we are born if only those who are "in Christ" are born again.

[John T]

Originally Posted by John T

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How does this fit into your definition?
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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

You seem to be saying that we are saved before we are born if only those who are "in Christ" are born again.

FOX TROT CL***ICS

[Saxon]

How does this fit into your definition?
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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

You seem to be saying that we are saved before we are born if only those who are "in Christ" are born again.

That is definitely not what I am saying. You have quoted Ephesians 1:3 to 5. This scripture explains that being in Christ is the only way to God’s blessings.

Paul is writing to Christians; the saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Christ Jesus. God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: He has chosen us in him. He has predestinated us unto the adoption of children. He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice that all thing that God has done for us, Christians, has been done IN CHRIST JESUS. The plan that God has is that anyone that is saved by grace through faith will be baptized into the one body, the body of Christ, (See 1Corinthians 12:13) and being in Christ they will have all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. (See Ephesians 1:3)

All spiritual blessings include being part of the elect. All this happens to and for believers only after we are placed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. God had made up his mind before the foundation of the world to choose us who would be found in Christ to bless us.

This does not mean that we were saved before the foundation of the world, but that is when God chose to bless us that would be in Christ. No one is in Christ until they are saved. I was not in Christ until March, 1972. Salvation comes before anything that is mentioned in Ephesians 1:3 to 5.



Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[tdidymas]

he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

"Before" is the when concerning our election. "Before the foundation of the world" - it means that we were chosen (elect) far before we ever existed, and even further before we were saved. Obviously "in Christ" is the setting, since no one is saved out of Christ. Therefore, election of individuals came before salvation.

Election is not the means of salvation. I agree with you here. Faith, regeneration, the Holy Spirit, redemption in Christ, the new covenant, etc., etc. as a complete package of salvation coming to individuals as a free gift from God - this is the means of the salvation of individuals. It is briefly laid out from God's view and God's monergistic work in Rom. 8:28-31.
TD

[Saxon]

"Before" is the when concerning our election. "Before the foundation of the world" - it means that we were chosen (elect) far before we ever existed, and even further before we were saved. Obviously "in Christ" is the setting, since no one is saved out of Christ. Therefore, election of individuals came before salvation.

Where does it state that we were chosen before we existed? Ephesians 1:4 says that the choosing of us “in him” (Christ) took place before the foundation of the world. You nor any one else was in Christ before you were born into the world or born again. You were not chosen or predestined to anything until you were saved. This did not happen before the foundation of the world. I was saved and in Christ in March, 1972. That was well after the foundation of the world.

Before the foundation of the world is when God decreed that those in Christ would be the elect and predestined and everything else that was for those that are in Christ Jesus. You were not in Christ until you were saved. The election of individuals came AFTER salvation.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Election is not the means of salvation. I agree with you here. Faith, regeneration, the Holy Spirit, redemption in Christ, the new covenant, etc., etc. as a complete package of salvation coming to individuals as a free gift from God - this is the means of the salvation of individuals. It is briefly laid out from God's view and God's monergistic work in Rom. 8:28-31.

Even in your statement, “in Christ” is the key.

[alanmolstad]

my views are that before the word wasmade, before even time was created, God already saw me as saved and with him in the kingdom.

Nothing about my salvation was left unknown to the Lord, or in doubt to him.

The salvation was a 100% ***ured fact....

[Saxon]

my views are that before the word wasmade, before even time was created, God already saw me as saved and with him in the kingdom.

Nothing about my salvation was left unknown to the Lord, or in doubt to him.

The salvation was a 100% ***ured fact....

There is no doubt in my mind that what you say is a possibility and is likely true, God knows the beginning all the way through to the end. What we have to determine is that what this text is saying? Your generalization does not reflect the text in Ephesians 1:1 to 6.

The text repeats the fact that it is those that are in Christ are the ones that are being referred to. There is no mention of those that will be in Christ as he is not demonstrating his foreknowledge in this text. Paul is writing from a “present” point of view. If we were there in the moment we would still be well past the foundation of the world.

Reread Ephesians 1:4 and the actuality is that there was no one that was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world as there was no one that existed as far as the human race is concerned. So God, before the foundation of the world declared that he has chosen us, the ones that were going to be in Christ that when we came into Christ that we would be chosen, predestined and all the other blessings that are for those that are in Christ.

The fact that there was going to be salvation was and is a 100% sure fact. The ones that get saved God knows. The fact that God knows something does not mean that it is because God caused it to happen. God’s foreknowledge does not determine that he caused it to happen. This only means that God knows what you will do before you do it.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[alanmolstad]

as I said....

before the world was made...before the first sun was placed into the darkness of time and space....before any of the things that are now were made...before all this..

God saw me with Him.

And not just accidentally...
God was not just looking into the future....God was not looking at what "was to be"

God was looking at what is.

For God has no past,
God cant look into his future for he has none.

And so my salvation is not just a happy accident.
my salvation was not left up to me to decide and then inform God...
God did not sit and watch me make a choice with the outcome in my hands....NO!

For God is a God of life and a God of action!.....not a god who sits and hopes for the best, with a back-up plan for whatever I might decide to do.


So this means that my salvation is an "act".....of God's Grace...
Not accidental, but rather it was predestined

And when things are predestined to happen one way, that can not happen any other way......

[RevSteve56]

The "choosing" that God has done, before the foundation of the world, is that His children, the ones who received His free gift of salvation by grace, through faith, should be holy and blameless before Him in love. God foreknows, of course, all who will receive His free gift of salvation. But this does not necessarily mean that He orchestrates events in our lives to lead us to that point. But just as Romans 8:28 says that All things work together for good, to them that love God and are the called according to His purpose. In the same way, God causes various people, places & events in our lives to bring us to a place where we can hear the Gospel, and thus receive faith to believe Him for salvation, if indeed that is our choice. Depending on the individual, he or she may have several chances to be saved. Once we are saved, it is in God's plan that we be holy & blameless before Him in love. If we are not saved, and we keep on rejecting God's salvation until we die, then it is God's plan that we separated from Him in eternity.

[alanmolstad]

for us whom God foreknew he ALSO Predestines....

God does not foreknow and LATER predestine something to be that He just happens to know works out that way in the end.

He Foreknows what HE does.......Foreknowledge does not happen to God before He predestines things to be one way....

So we cant say that God looked into the future and saw me getting saved, and then just arranged it...For that would make God trapped in time as we were and always in need of cheating and looking at the back of the book for the answers so He knows what to do in the here and now.



The truth is that I was saved because that was always the plan.
And the plan cant be changed because the plan was always predetermined.

Thus God does indeed orchestrate events in all our lives to lead us to Himself, as was predetermined to happen before the world was created.

So we don't say that a person has several "chances" to becomes saved as if there were only individual "spots" in our lives when salvation was offered to us, rather what we do say is that the Lord is always at work orchestrating the lives of people to draw all men to Himself.

[Saxon]

Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do?

[alanmolstad]

God always knew what matters would happen in "time" ...this is because God is not held by time....He is beyond the ability of time to bind and hold.

Thus its not a matter of God needing to look into the future, rather God is already present in the future as much as He is present in any single moment of time, (past/present/future).

So when we say that "Godforknows all things, we have to keep in mind that its not a matter of God looking into a crystal ball and getting a rough idea of what may one can happen.

No!......
Rather we can have full confidence in God, and in his predestination of our personal salvation because he is there in the future....he is the creator of the future.....just as much as he is here with us in our "now"....and also at the dawn of time...


Unlimited.....God is unlimited by the grip time.

[Saxon]

Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Does God foreknow what we......?

would be a rather silly god unless he did...

[Saxon]

Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do? This is not a question of God's mental stability but of what God foreknows. Answer the question directly.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Does God foreknow what we are going to do......

The clear and direct answer I have to your question is..."yes"


He would be a rather silly god if He did not right?

The idea we get from the scriptures is that God is unlike us totally.
God is not bound by time and space.
So we don't think of God needing to "look" into the future that has not happened yet as if God also has to learn what is to be, rather the truth is that God is present in the future .



God is there, just as much as God is here in our "now"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

does God foreknow what he will make us do?

The clear and direct answer to your question is.....yes


God is not making up his will on the spir of the moment.
God is not constantly thinking up a different "Plan B" every time I do something.

The many,many examples we have in scripture also make this very clear....

for example the scriptures tell us that one day in the future the Master would arrive riding on a young colt.
Many years later Jesus tells his men to go into the city and find the young colt there and take it so that he can come riding into town on it.

Now consider the owner of the colt, and the reason he had the colt in that one spot on the earth and not somewhere else?
The owner of the colt could have taken it anywhere in the world that day, for the owner always has free will to do what he wants.

Yet the owner of the colt was where he was, and was there and could not be any other place...

Free will, and Gods sovereignty, working hand-in-hand




Another example is found in the story of Jonah and the Whale(or big fish, whatever)
In the story we see Jonah get tossed over the side of the ship and right away get ate up by a great fish that had been "prepared" by the Lord.
So the fish, (or whale, whatever it was) was not just swimming by and accidentally ate a man that happened by, but rather this was all, totally orchestrated by the Lord from the beginning of time to happen in only this one way...

So it was no accident that Jonah received the calling of God
It was no accident that he turned away from this calling
It was no accident there was a storm
It was no accident that Jonah suggested that the storm was his fault and they should toss him over the side
It was no accident that there was a fish swimming near the boat.
It was no accident that this fish was different than all other fish in the sea....
It was no accident that when the crew drew lots to see who was at fault for the storm that the lat fell on Jonah...




Was the drawing of the lot "predetermined by God to fall onto Jonah?....from the text I think the answer is clearly YES!

But yet at the same time was the drawing of lot was always completely within the rules of random chance found in nature?.......yes!

[Saxon]

Then God has predetermined every move that every man and woman will ever do. If this is the case where is free will that you say is working hand in hand with God's sovereignty?

I do believe that in the sovereignty of God, man has a free will and it is free from the influence of God, in that god does not force man to do what he does not want to do. What you have described as free will is a farce in that you answer yes that God foreknows what he will make us do.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Then God has predetermined .....

Consider the Text at Romans 8:29

The text says "he also..."

Not "He therefore..."

This teaches us that God does not predestine things that he has to use his foreknowledge to see happen that way anyway....

"also".....

Not "later on".....Not "Because of"


The predestination of God is not dependent on how things happen anyway without Him...

In other words, God does not need to see how things end before he can predetermine how they will end....
A god who did that would be fake.

[alanmolstad]

Paul tells us the answer to all your questions in just 11 short verses....

Dr Walter Martin deals with all the questions and doubts you have about God's nature and control of this world

[Saxon]

The answer is still centered on being "in Christ" This video you have supplied confirms it as well.

[alanmolstad]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.

[Saxon]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"

You have come to the correct conclusion but you reasoning is totally out to lunch. God is Sovereign and within the sovereignty of God man has free will. God wants to save people, but people must respond to the call of God. God’s sovereignty does not make him a holy crybaby that gets his own way or nothing. The Bible is clear that it is not God’s will that any should parish but that all should come to repentance. (See 2 Peter 3:9) It is obvious that not all will come to repentance. Does this mean that God’s sovereignty is lost or even challenged? No because in the sovereignty of God man has been allowed to have a free will even if it goes against what God wants.

As far as God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, God did not do the deed but Pharaoh did it of his own accord in an act of rebellion and defiance of God. That is why it is said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. If God so loved the world, why would he harden anyone’s heart????

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Saxon]

Consider the Text at Romans 8:29

The text says "he also..."

Not "He therefore..."

This teaches us that God does not predestine things that he has to use his foreknowledge to see happen that way anyway....

"also".....

Not "later on".....Not "Because of"


The predestination of God is not dependent on how things happen anyway without Him...

In other words, God does not need to see how things end before he can predetermine how they will end....
A god who did that would be fake.

Yes, let us consider Romans 8:29. What did God foreknow? He foreknew those that would be in Christ were the ones that he would predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. There is no text that states that he forced anyone to be saved or not to be saved. Your wild idea of what predestination and foreknowing is, is nothing more than vane imaginings on your part.

Let us go back to Ephesians 1:1 to 6. Here we find that it is only those that are in Christ that are predestined to anything that God predestines people to. It is only those that are in Christ that God has blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. It is only those that are in Christ that he has chosen.

As far as predestination, so far we have only found that God has predestinated people to be conformed to the image of his Son (see Romans 8:29) and predestinated us unto the adoption of children. (See Ephesians 1:5) So far there is absolutely no mention of any predestination to salvation or hell for that matter. If there is anything in scripture that even suggests that, you will have to be kind enough to show me.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.