Is Election the Only Means of Salvation?

[alanmolstad]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.

[Saxon]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"

You have come to the correct conclusion but you reasoning is totally out to lunch. God is Sovereign and within the sovereignty of God man has free will. God wants to save people, but people must respond to the call of God. God’s sovereignty does not make him a holy crybaby that gets his own way or nothing. The Bible is clear that it is not God’s will that any should parish but that all should come to repentance. (See 2 Peter 3:9) It is obvious that not all will come to repentance. Does this mean that God’s sovereignty is lost or even challenged? No because in the sovereignty of God man has been allowed to have a free will even if it goes against what God wants.

As far as God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, God did not do the deed but Pharaoh did it of his own accord in an act of rebellion and defiance of God. That is why it is said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. If God so loved the world, why would he harden anyone’s heart????

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Saxon]

Consider the Text at Romans 8:29

The text says "he also..."

Not "He therefore..."

This teaches us that God does not predestine things that he has to use his foreknowledge to see happen that way anyway....

"also".....

Not "later on".....Not "Because of"


The predestination of God is not dependent on how things happen anyway without Him...

In other words, God does not need to see how things end before he can predetermine how they will end....
A god who did that would be fake.

Yes, let us consider Romans 8:29. What did God foreknow? He foreknew those that would be in Christ were the ones that he would predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. There is no text that states that he forced anyone to be saved or not to be saved. Your wild idea of what predestination and foreknowing is, is nothing more than vane imaginings on your part.

Let us go back to Ephesians 1:1 to 6. Here we find that it is only those that are in Christ that are predestined to anything that God predestines people to. It is only those that are in Christ that God has blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. It is only those that are in Christ that he has chosen.

As far as predestination, so far we have only found that God has predestinated people to be conformed to the image of his Son (see Romans 8:29) and predestinated us unto the adoption of children. (See Ephesians 1:5) So far there is absolutely no mention of any predestination to salvation or hell for that matter. If there is anything in scripture that even suggests that, you will have to be kind enough to show me.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

....... What did God foreknow?.......

all things.....

God foreknew all things, and "also" predestined them to happen.
everything that will happen, from even before the beginning of time....


The word "also" is showing us that foreknowledge of God does not happen before He predestined things to happen.


Too many people believe that God just cheated and looked at the ending line up of people that make it to heaven one day, and think that God used that list of names to know who to predestine...

That is error!

Its error because it makes God into a person who is held by the grip of time.

But God is not so limited that he has to cheat by sneaking a peek at the answers in the back of the book to see who He should call and who he should not call.



Thus God sees me with him eternally in heaven with Himself, and has been seeing me there with Him from before the world was made.
Nothing was left to chance!
Nothing was left for someone else to decide
Nothing was left unknown.

Thus Im a saved Christian for only one reason...God made it so.
Im a Christian because that is the way God wanted it to be, and it is the way it has always been in His eyes....

[Saxon]

I do not think that you know what you are talking about. you contradict yourself using English terms that are contrary to what you are saying. "foreknowledge of God does not happen before He predestined things to happen." that is not foreknowledge, that is stating what God will do. If God looks to you in the future, say 22 November 2015, and says you will eat a green apple instead of the red one that is also available, that is foreknowledge. On 22 November 2015 you do eat the green apple instead of the red apple. This isn't because God caused you to eat the green apple it is because he saw you eat the green apple. There is a difference between predestination and foreknowledge. You don't seem to see the difference.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I do not think that you know what you are talking about. .......

I have had this conversation before....


http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...highlight=free

[alanmolstad]

One time I was challenged by this question:
Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?


My answer was "yes"
and I showed how it is very true.
And to some who would read my words they would catch the meaning...
But others seem to only to get frustrated, and turn to personal attacks and insult etc.

[Saxon]

free will noun

: the ability to choose how to act

: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

you are not correct according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will

[alanmolstad]

it reminds me of the conversation I had with a guy named Billy here on this forum.

And he believed that when God used people in the bible that this means they lacked what we call "Free will"

But I showed Billy how the Bible clearly teaches us in the story of the Exodus how God can fully and completely control a person like Pharaoh and yet at the same time God never needed to take away the free will of Pharaoh .

So that is why we read a story in the Bible where we see that Pharaoh was only doing exactly what God forced him to do, yet also we read that at no point was the free will of Pharaoh removed to do this.

[Saxon]

If God forced Pharaoh, then there was no free will involved. You can't have it both ways.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

If God forced Pharaoh, then there was no free will involved. You can't have it both ways.

Yes you can...
Who says you cant?.....who made up such a rule?...

[Saxon]

You likely can be wet and dry all over ant hte same time. Lots of luck on that.

[alanmolstad]

Pharaoh was forced to do what he did by God.
He had no other path...it was set in stone to go the way it went from before the world was made...
Nothing was left for someone else to decide how it would go...
Nothing was left in doubt.
The Lord never left part of the story up to someone else to decide.

yet at the same time.

pharaoh had complete free will to do whatever he wanted to do.

[Saxon]

Show me your scriptural support that Pharaoh was "forced" to do what he did. You are a fatalist.

[Saxon]

fa•tal•ism noun \-tə-ˌli-zəm\

: the belief that what will happen has already been decided and cannot be changed

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fatalist

[alanmolstad]

we humans look at time and its kinda like we read a book...or think of a book where there is a beginning, and a middle, and an ending.

So if someone says to you, turn to the first part of the book you know where to turn....
And if they say "turn to the last part of the book" you know what part of the book to look at.


But God is not bound by time in any way.
So in a small way, its like when we look at a painting.
For when we look at a painting there is no "beginning"...there is no "last part of the painting"
When you look at a painting you can take it all in at once, or you can study closely one small part of the painting....


thats kinda how I view God's relationship with what we call "time"
For God is not bound by time, and so when we ask "When was God born?" the question has no meaning and no connection to God.
God des not have a beginning
God does not have an ending.
God does not experience the p***ing of time.
God can not learn anything new.
God can not be surprised by something unknown to him...
God does not have to look into a crystal ball to see the ending of time, for he sees the ending just as clearly as he sees the beginning.

[Saxon]

That is all very nice but, Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do?

[Saxon]

as I said....

before the world was made...before the first sun was placed into the darkness of time and space....before any of the things that are now were made...before all this..

God saw me with Him.

As I said before, There is no doubt in my mind that what you say is a possibility and is likely true, God knows the beginning all the way through to the end. (See Isaiah 46:9 and 10)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

And not just accidentally...
God was not just looking into the future....God was not looking at what "was to be"

That is what seeing the future is all about, “looking at what was to be”. Are you saying that we are all programmed and are all sinning where the program says sin and doing good where the program says do good?

God was looking at what is.

For God has no past,
God cant look into his future for he has none.

What makes you suspect that God is looking into his future? When God deals with mankind there is a beginning and an end (See Isaiah 46:10) you can even say a past, present and a future.

And so my salvation is not just a happy accident.
my salvation was not left up to me to decide and then inform God...
God did not sit and watch me make a choice with the outcome in my hands....NO!

If you think that is what I am espousing, show me where I have given you that Idea.

For God is a God of life and a God of action!.....not a god who sits and hopes for the best, with a back-up plan for whatever I might decide to do.


So this means that my salvation is an "act".....of God's Grace...
Not accidental, but rather it was predestined


And when things are predestined to happen one way, that can not happen any other way......

Show me the scripture that states that anyone’s personal salvation was predestined. You just stated that your salvation was predestined.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as I said....

before the world was made...before the first sun was placed into the darkness of time and space....before any of the things that are now were made...before all this..

God saw me with Him.

And not just accidentally...
God was not just looking into the future....God was not looking at what "was to be"

God was looking at what is.

For God has no past,
God cant look into his future for he has none.

And so my salvation is not just a happy accident.
my salvation was not left up to me to decide and then inform God...
God did not sit and watch me make a choice with the outcome in my hands....NO!

For God is a God of life and a God of action!.....not a god who sits and hopes for the best, with a back-up plan for whatever I might decide to do.


So this means that my salvation is an "act".....of God's Grace...
Not accidental, but rather it was predestined

And when things are predestined to happen one way, they can not happen any other way......

One of my better posted comments on this issue...



When things are predestined by God to happen one way, they can not happen any other way......AMEN!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

...... You were not chosen or predestined to anything until you were saved.... .

Your statement is just wrong.

[Saxon]

Your statement is just wrong.

And your statement is very informative. Don’t just tell me that my statement is wrong, help me to see the error of my statement if it is so wrong.

You are going to explain how you are in Christ before you were born into the world and how you were in Christ before you were saved. It is all to those that are in Christ Jesus, in Christ, in him, and in the beloved. None can be in Christ without being first born into the world, the natural birth, and then being born again, the spiritual birth.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[alanmolstad]

Im writing a book right now.
I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
It was the story from the very beginning.

[alanmolstad]

My point?


My point is that God does not "predetermine" anything "after' anything....


Nothing came before God's predetermination.

[alanmolstad]

This topic reminds me of a guy who used to post here all the time.
He had the idea that God simply predestined the people who he first foreknew.

In his view,God looked into the future, He saw who of the humans would believe, and so God then knew who to therefore predestine to be a believer.


I totally disagreed with that whole idea he had.

I pointed out that his idea made god 'trapped" in time with the rest of us...for God had to "learn" who to predestine "before" he could predestine anyone.

That is why my friend's idea was in error...

For the truth is, that God's foreknowledge does not happen apart or before His predestination.

[Saxon]

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? If so are the rest predestined to hell?