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Thread: Is Election the Only Means of Salvation?

  1. #51
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    I do appreciate that you believe in free will. I think that is great.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  2. #52
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    ...... You were not chosen or predestined to anything until you were saved.... .
    Your statement is just wrong.

  3. #53
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    Your statement is just wrong.
    And your statement is very informative. Don’t just tell me that my statement is wrong, help me to see the error of my statement if it is so wrong.

    You are going to explain how you are in Christ before you were born into the world and how you were in Christ before you were saved. It is all to those that are in Christ Jesus, in Christ, in him, and in the beloved. None can be in Christ without being first born into the world, the natural birth, and then being born again, the spiritual birth.

    Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  4. #54
    alanmolstad
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    Im writing a book right now.
    I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
    The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

    Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

    I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


    The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
    It was the story from the very beginning.

  5. #55
    alanmolstad
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    My point?


    My point is that God does not "predetermine" anything "after' anything....


    Nothing came before God's predetermination.

  6. #56
    alanmolstad
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    This topic reminds me of a guy who used to post here all the time.
    He had the idea that God simply predestined the people who he first foreknew.

    In his view,God looked into the future, He saw who of the humans would believe, and so God then knew who to therefore predestine to be a believer.


    I totally disagreed with that whole idea he had.

    I pointed out that his idea made god 'trapped" in time with the rest of us...for God had to "learn" who to predestine "before" he could predestine anyone.

    That is why my friend's idea was in error...

    For the truth is, that God's foreknowledge does not happen apart or before His predestination.

  7. #57
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    Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? If so are the rest predestined to hell?
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  8. #58
    alanmolstad
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    from the beginning of all.....not just known are we to the Lord...not just by his ability to know the future does god call us ,,but because it was predetermined as well...

  9. #59
    alanmolstad
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    what we want to avoid is thinking God is as trapped in time as we are.

    By this I mean, that some people believe that God simply predestined the same people that his knowledge of the future told him that one day would believe in Him.

    This cant be right as it means God had to cheat and look at what finally happens in the future before He knows what people predestine.

    This is not the god of the bible.


    The God of the Bible is not trapped in time, therefore He does not do one thing before another.
    He cant learn one thing before he learns another...

    and that mans he cant use his foreknowledge of the future to help him know who to predestine.

  10. #60
    alanmolstad
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    so if God picked us out before the beginning of the world, how can we then turn around and say God did not predistine some to Hell?

    This is how -
    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B


    Calvin is wrong to say that some are predestined to hell

    Arminianism is wrong to say we get to heaven on our own
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-16-2015 at 09:34 AM.

  11. #61
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    Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    What does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? Has he not chosen us in him before the foundation of the world? No one was in him before the foundation of the world. He would not have to know if any were going to be in Christ he still said that he has blessed us in Christ, he has chosen us in him, we are accepted in the beloved. Even in the video, Walter Martin said that it is “in Christ” and that we had to get there in time.

    It is only those that are in Christ are we predestined to anything. Not before salvation.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  12. #62
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

    .
    the answer to the question is to point back to the recording by Walter martin.
    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B


    and to point out my post number #54 above,
    reprinted now here -


    "Im writing a book right now.
    I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
    The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

    Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

    I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


    The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
    It was the story from the very beginning. "

  13. #63
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    So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  14. #64
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.
    thee answer is this-

    Calvin is wrong to say that some are predestined to hell
    Arminianism is wrong to say we get to heaven on our own


    I listened again to the recording of Dr Martin, and I narrowed down the whole thing to one moment that is centered on the very question you are asking..

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B
    Click on the recording at the 5:00 moment and you will here just what I think, as spoken by someone a lot smarter than I am.

  15. #65
    alanmolstad
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    so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.


    On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
    The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


    and...

    on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.


    There is no answer to this dilemma.

    People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
    People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

    Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.






    Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

    Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL


    But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


    By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-16-2015 at 01:10 PM.

  16. #66
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    The question was and is, Do YOU believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? You must know what you believe!
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  17. #67
    alanmolstad
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    now how doi i teach members of my own Bible cl***, how to understand how God can be a sovereign, and have predetermined before the world began who would be with him in Glory, and yet at the same time also have a Christian faith that requires the person to hear and believe in order to be saved?


    I try to tell a story that shows how this works in our lives.



    You are on a great ship at sea.
    the Skipper of the ship is the only one on the ship that has the authority to predetermine where the ship goes.
    However the skipper has also granted the p***engers on-board the ship a limited amount of freedom to be able to walk around on the ship's deck.

    So you as a p***enger walk out onto the deck, and decide to walk "clockwise",,,and so you have the limited freedom that does allow you to move your legs and walk clockwise around the ship's deck if you want...So you walk to the clockwise.


    But the ship you are on is actually headed to the West.
    the ship will arrive at the port on time in the west.....your freedom to walk clockwise do not interferer with the travel of the ship at all.

    You never lost your limited freedom

    You wanted to walk in one direction, and you did.
    Its just that while you were doing that, the ship itself was going only in the direction the skipper wanted, regardless of your plans.


    So the freedom we enjoy as p***engers can not overpower the command of the Skipper to control the ship.





    its the same , with our lives and the sovereignty of God.

    we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
    and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-16-2015 at 01:33 PM.

  18. #68
    alanmolstad
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    so its like Walter Martin says......its a dilemma.

  19. #69
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    so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.
    So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.



    On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
    The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


    and...

    on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.
    And respond we must!!



    There is no answer to this dilemma.
    The answer is, within the sovereignty of God, God has given man a free will that man is responsible to use and for how he uses the free will that God has allowed man to have and use.



    People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
    People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

    Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.
    Unfortunately for that theory, I believe in the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.



    Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

    Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL
    I think that you know the verses but you haven’t found the way they work. Just as Walter said “In Christ”. In Christ is the key and being aware of when you actually were “in Christ” is a large clue to when a person is predestined. Listen to Walter again and see if he doesn't say that it happened in real time. Your arrival in Christ is concurrent with salvation.

    But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


    By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.
    It is not how God is God, but how God operates. The sovereignty of God and the free will of man in reality is too easy and no mystery when you believe exactly what Ephesians 1:3 to 7 says.

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  20. #70
    alanmolstad
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    yes..... as I said.....both sides of the issue always believe that with "just one more verse" then their side will be seen as being right.....LOL


    Both sides are both slightly correct and dead wrong at the same time.....

  21. #71
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    when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?

  22. #72
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    we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
    and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....
    Where does it say that God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven? I can show you where God has said that he will predestine those that are in Christ to adoption of children, but you can't show me where God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven. You and Walter have already said that Calvin was wrong on this very point. But you want it both ways when it is convenient.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?
    the answer is...?


    The answer is that I predistined the hero to be a spy before I picked up the pen and paper.

    The decision was already made...the whole life already planned out fully.
    Nothing was left in doubt about the fate of the hero.
    The story had yet to be written, but it was already predetermined how it would end for the hero.


    its the same with my salvation.....
    It was already a done-deal...predetermined, with zero left for chance or me to screw up....


    Thats what it means to believe in predestination....that all events are not just 'known" but also planned for,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

  24. #74
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    So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  25. #75
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    You are not on the same level as the creator of all that is created.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

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