Let's discuss it

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View PostThose that did nothing got fired.One more time. Works has nothing to do with GETTING saved, Works do not and will not get you saved. Works are required after you are saved.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Required for what?

Originally Posted by Saxon

Required to live a Christian Life. (See Ephesians 2:10) Do you think that we are just to sit around and wait for the sweet by and by???

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I believe this post contains some very interesting components that beg to be discussed by Christians. I am referring to BIBLICAL discussions--not personal man-made doctrines or opinions.

First--the comment that one is not saved by works.

The scriptures agree--one is not saved by works--but by God's grace. Once one accepts that--the next question should follow--who receives of this grace? If what the Bible testifies to is true--those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And withholds that grace from those who do not obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Those two points defy faith alone theology--which preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe this post contains some very interesting components that beg to be discussed by Christians. I am referring to BIBLICAL discussions--not personal man-made doctrines or opinions.

First--the comment that one is not saved by works.

The scriptures agree--one is not saved by works--but by God's grace. Once one accepts that--the next question should follow--who receives of this grace? If what the Bible testifies to is true--those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And withholds that grace from those who do not obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Those two points defy faith alone theology--which preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Hi,

I think for any discussion to be profitable it should be clear to all what's being discussed. Can you define 1st "salvation" and 2nd "grace"
Thanks.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI believe this post contains some very interesting components that beg to be discussed by Christians. I am referring to BIBLICAL discussions--not personal man-made doctrines or opinions.

First--the comment that one is not saved by works.

The scriptures agree--one is not saved by works--but by God's grace. Once one accepts that--the next question should follow--who receives of this grace? If what the Bible testifies to is true--those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And withholds that grace from those who do not obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Those two points defy faith alone theology--which preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi,

I think for any discussion to be profitable it should be clear to all what's being discussed. Can you define 1st "salvation" and 2nd "grace"
Thanks.

Hi Disciple.

When I refer to "salvation"--I'm referring to eternal life.

Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves. And my focal point is salvational grace. An example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him might be found here:

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple.

When I refer to "salvation"--I'm referring to eternal life.

Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves. And my focal point is salvational grace. And example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him might be found here:

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can a person obey God without His grace? It sounds like you are saying that grace comes by obedience.
Romans 5:1-2 - Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God ... we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We are no longer enemies of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Disciple.

When I refer to "salvation"--I'm referring to eternal life.

Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves. And my focal point is salvational grace. And example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him might be found here:

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by disciple

Can a person obey God without His grace?

People can obey God and not even realize there is a God. Atheists can live moral lives--and not believe in God.

What, specifically--is your point?

It sounds like you are saying that grace comes by obedience.

Salvational grace, as a personal reception--is given to them that obey God--just as the scriptures state:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Disciple--could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism you don't consider our obedience to Jesus Christ--or what it is about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

Romans 5:1-2 - Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God ... we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We are no longer enemies of God.

When you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--as in Romans5:1-2 above--are you thinking that is a reference to a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

People can obey God and not even realize there is a God. Atheists can live moral lives--and not believe in God.

What, specifically--is your point?



Salvational grace, as a personal reception--is given to them that obey God--just as the scriptures state:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Disciple--could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism you don't consider our obedience to Jesus Christ--or what it is about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?



When you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--as in Romans5:1-2 above--are you thinking that is a reference to a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hi DB,

First I will say that I believe that salvation is by faith alone but works will always follow as fruit of that salvation. Just as Jesus said. "if you love me keep my commandments", loving Him causes you to keep those commands. One is the result of the other like faith and works. My question is does a lost person obey unto salvation or does the lost person hear the truth, believe unto salvation and is now capable of obedience?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post People can obey God and not even realize there is a God. Atheists can live moral lives--and not believe in God.

What, specifically--is your point?

Salvational grace, as a personal reception--is given to them that obey God--just as the scriptures state:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Disciple--could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism you don't consider our obedience to Jesus Christ--or what it is about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

When you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--as in Romans5:1-2 above--are you thinking that is a reference to a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,

First I will say that I believe that salvation is by faith alone but works will always follow as fruit of that salvation.

Hi Disciple.

I know. But the fact is--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical text:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Just as Jesus said. "if you love me keep my commandments", loving Him causes you to keep those commands. One is the result of the other like faith and works.

But that is welding them together. The faith alone believe in a faith without works in salvation. Any connecting faith to works is following salvation--in the faith alone theology.

My question is does a lost person obey unto salvation or does the lost person hear the truth, believe unto salvation and is now capable of obedience?

There is no salvation without obedience to Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could you point us to scriptures that preach a salvation without obedience to Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple.

I know. But the fact is--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical text:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



But that is welding them together. The faith alone believe in a faith without works in salvation. Any connecting faith to works is following salvation--in the faith alone theology.



There is no salvation without obedience to Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could you point us to scriptures that preach a salvation without obedience to Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Hi DB,

I am not discounting obedience to Christ, if you call Him Lord you best obey Him or you are fooling yourself. But the lost are enemies of Christ they cannot obey Him, it is after hearing the gospel and believing that we have the power of the Holy Spirit to obey. To be justified (james 2:24) means to be declared righteous only a born again person can be justified. Romans 4:2-3 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Works and obedience come after salvation they are the fruit of salvation. If obedience was a prerequisite to salvation none could be saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Disciple.

I know. But the fact is--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical text:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But that is welding them together. The faith alone believe in a faith without works in salvation. Any connecting faith to works is following salvation--in the faith alone theology.

There is no salvation without obedience to Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could you point us to scriptures that preach a salvation without obedience to Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,

I am not discounting obedience to Christ, if you call Him Lord you best obey Him or you are fooling yourself.

Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through faith without works? A dead faith saves?

But the lost are enemies of Christ they cannot obey Him,

Of course they can. All are lost until they obey Christ. We all were lost until we obeyed Him.

it is after hearing the gospel and believing that we have the power of the Holy Spirit to obey.

There is something about that claim I believe we need to examine:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB, To be justified (james 2:24) means to be declared righteous only a born again person can be justified.

The early church fathers were unified in connecting repentance and water baptism to the born again experience:

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

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ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

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TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

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RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

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ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

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SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ...Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.
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ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

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ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

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ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

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APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]...he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be ****ed." (6:3:15)

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through faith without works? A dead faith saves?



Of course they can. All are lost until they obey Christ. We all were lost until we obeyed Him.



There is something about that claim I believe we need to examine:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Do faith and works come at the same time? No. The branch must be attached to the vine. Jesus said "without Me you can do nothing". A dead faith is a false faith .
What command did the thief on the cross obey, what work did he show to go along with his faith. He believed and he was saved and if he lived he would have obeyed Christ and served Him with good works.

[alanmolstad]

its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...

good example.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

good example.

Once in a while I see a discussion going on between people on the question of works VS faith...
And I like to take the oppertunity to point out that its not Work vs Faith at all.....

We are not saved by works, just as we are not saved by faith.

The video should help people start to see that Christians are saved only by Grace ALONE!




So its not Faith vs Works...

Its not Faith plus works...

Its not Faith first, then works.....

Its not any combination of faith and Works at all....and it never was!

[alanmolstad]

So this means that the video gives us the answer....



and there is no other answer.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Do faith and works come at the same time? No. The branch must be attached to the vine. Jesus said "without Me you can do nothing". A dead faith is a false faith .
What command did the thief on the cross obey,

Hi Disciple:

How does the thief on the cross somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to them that obey Him?

Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

What is your evidence the thief was not baptized here?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

what work did he show to go along with his faith. He believed and he was saved and if he lived he would have obeyed Christ and served Him with good works.

There is but one place the Biblical record shows Christ after His death:

1 Peter 3:18-19----King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Again--how are you using that to negate the Biblical testimony?

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple:

How does the thief on the cross somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to them that obey Him?

Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

What is your evidence the thief was not baptized here?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.



There is but one place the Biblical record shows Christ after His death:

1 Peter 3:18-19----King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Again--how are you using that to negate the Biblical testimony?

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Hi DB,

You said this in post #3 "Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves". That's the point, if we have to somehow meet some standard to receive saving grace we won't because as you said we can't. Our obedience and changed heart will produce fruit (works) and this is the proof that one is born again. And who is this proof for? Does God need to see works and obedience to know we are saved? He sees our heart, the proof is for us and those around us as a witness and encouragement and to give God glory. Your reference to 2 John 1:9 also makes the same point, if you are continually transgressing it's because you haven't received God's saving grace by faith, if you are obeying the doctrine of Christ its because you are saved not because your obedience will save you.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,
You said this in post #3 "Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves". That's the point, if we have to somehow meet some standard to receive saving grace we won't because as you said we can't.

Hi Disciple. I did not state we can't obey God in order to receive of His salvational grace--I defined salvational grace as something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I posted Acts2:38 as an example:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I made the point this is an example of God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

You do realize the obedience of repentance and water baptism is not the grace? It's what they received because of the obedience of repentance and water baptism--the remission of sins--that is God's salvational grace.

The Biblical NT has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. Repentance and water baptism is something we can do for ourselves--the remission of sins is not.

Our obedience and changed heart will produce fruit (works)

I agree--and those fruits are necessary for His grace unto life:

Matthew 7:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

and this is the proof that one is born again. And who is this proof for? Does God need to see works and obedience to know we are saved? He sees our heart, the proof is for us and those around us as a witness and encouragement and to give God glory. Your reference to 2 John 1:9 also makes the same point, if you are continually transgressing it's because you haven't received God's saving grace by faith,

But that is a connection between works and grace. The fact is--those who do not obey the gospel do not receive of God's grace:

Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Disciple--there is no such thing as faith alone theology found in the Biblical NT.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple. I did not state we can't obey God in order to receive of His salvational grace--I defined salvational grace as something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I posted Acts2:38 as an example:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I made the point this is an example of God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

You do realize the obedience of repentance and water baptism is not the grace? It's what they received because of the obedience of repentance and water baptism--the remission of sins--that is God's salvational grace.

The Biblical NT has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. Repentance and water baptism is something we can do for ourselves--the remission of sins is not.



I agree--and those fruits are necessary for His grace unto life:

Matthew 7:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.



But that is a connection between works and grace. The fact is--those who do not obey the gospel do not receive of God's grace:

Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Disciple--there is no such thing as faith alone theology found in the Biblical NT.

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph. 2:5
Can dead men repent or be baptized?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph. 2:5
Can dead men repent or be baptized?

Yes, very true!

Remember its not Faith alone
Its not Works alone
Its not by any combination of Faith and Works alone.

But rather it is by Grace alone!

Grace alone though Faith that we are saved...




http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-8.htm

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hi Disciple. I did not state we can't obey God in order to receive of His salvational grace--I defined salvational grace as something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I posted Acts2:38 as an example:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I made the point this is an example of God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

You do realize the obedience of repentance and water baptism is not the grace? It's what they received because of the obedience of repentance and water baptism--the remission of sins--that is God's salvational grace.

The Biblical NT has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. Repentance and water baptism is something we can do for ourselves--the remission of sins is not.

I agree--and those fruits are necessary for His grace unto life:

Matthew 7:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

But that is a connection between works and grace. The fact is--those who do not obey the gospel do not receive of God's grace:

Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Disciple--there is no such thing as faith alone theology found in the Biblical NT.

Originally Posted by disciple

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph. 2:5
Can dead men repent or be baptized?

Of course they can--and that is what all were commanded to do--for God's grace of the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--do you believe they were alive in Christ before the remission of sins? Before repentance?

[alanmolstad]

There is the justification by Works and the justification by Faith.

The person goes down into the water and receives baptism and we who see this can therefore understand that the person has fulfilled the requirement of a Christian to receive remission of sins.
That is WORKS!.

That also is what Walter Martin is talking about with his example of Abraham lifting the knife over his son.
People could see him raise the knife and understand that he is showing the WORKS of someone who is now justified by his works.

But God knows the heart.
God knew the heart of Abraham before Abraham walked up the mountain.
God knows the heart of the believer before he walks down into the water.
This is the justification by Faith.


before men we are justified by works
before God we are justified by Faith!.......Amen.

case-closed.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Of course they can--and that is what all were commanded to do--for God's grace of the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--do you believe they were alive in Christ before the remission of sins? Before repentance?

Salvation is always the result of God’s love for us, not our love for him. It is his grace—not our efforts—that saves us.
"And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace" Acts 18:27
Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing God's word.
Romans 1:16 - The gospel is God's power to save.
We will not obey God, in spirit and truth until we love Him. There are many who act the part of obedience but with hearts far from God. Lost men do not love or obey God, they cannot.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Salvation is always the result of God’s love for us, not our love for him. It is his grace—not our efforts—that saves us.

And how are you relating that to the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

John 14:15,21, 23-24---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

"And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace" Acts 18:27
Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing God's word.
Romans 1:16 - The gospel is God's power to save.

We will not obey God, in spirit and truth until we love Him. There are many who act the part of obedience but with hearts far from God. Lost men do not love or obey God, they cannot.

And this is the beginning of the gospel--what is it about this you don't consider faith or belief in Christ?

Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And how are you relating that to the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

John 14:15,21, 23-24---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

In all of these verses you will note that the obeying and keeping is a result and proof of the love of God and belief of His word and doctrines. So do you believe that a man can love God and obey Him before salvation? Hearing the truth of the Gospel and believing is neither work or obedience it is conviction and grace.