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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    In all of these verses you will note that the obeying and keeping is a result and proof of the love of God and belief of His word and doctrines. So do you believe that a man can love God and obey Him before salvation? Hearing the truth of the Gospel and believing is neither work or obedience it is conviction and grace.
    Hi Disciple:

    Again--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Did those of Acts2:38 love God before they repented and were baptized--or after?

    I believe you are attempting to fit an instantaneous salvation into the Biblical text--it won't fit:

    John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

    Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Disciple:

    Again--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Did those of Acts2:38 love God before they repented and were baptized--or after?

    I believe you are attempting to fit an instantaneous salvation into the Biblical text--it won't fit:

    John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

    Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    Hello DB,

    “He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful”
    1 Cor 1:8-9

    So yes, believers are to hold firm to their faith until the end. But this, to me, is a characteristic of a true faith because God keeps those that are truly His strong to the end God is faithful and Jesus will lose none of those that the Father gives Him. We also need to remember that the writers of the New Testament knew that within the group of recipients of their letter would be non-Christians, and those that simply profess to be saved, amongst the truly born-again believers (like there is in any church). So their warnings to hold fast to the faith until the end is important.
    A true child of God continues in the faith, not in order to hold on to his salvation, but as a fruit of the new life. It is not a work of merit, but an outworking of the life of Christ within him.

  3. #28
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Disciple:

    Again--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Did those of Acts2:38 love God before they repented and were baptized--or after?

    I believe you are attempting to fit an instantaneous salvation into the Biblical text--it won't fit:

    John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

    Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hello DB,

    “He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful”
    1 Cor 1:8-9
    The scriptures state His fellowship is conditional upon our walk in the light:

    1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Being "faithful" is obeying God.

    So yes, believers are to hold firm to their faith until the end.
    Not only to hold firm--but that salvation is conditional upon it:

    Hebrews 3:14--King James Version (KJV)
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    But this, to me, is a characteristic of a true faith
    Is a "true faith" necessary for salvation?

    because God keeps those that are truly His strong to the end God is faithful and Jesus will lose none of those that the Father gives Him. We also need to remember that the writers of the New Testament knew that within the group of recipients of their letter would be non-Christians, and those that simply profess to be saved, amongst the truly born-again believers (like there is in any church). So their warnings to hold fast to the faith until the end is important. A true child of God continues in the faith, not in order to hold on to his salvation,
    Again--the scriptures state that enduring to the end is a condition of salvation:

    1 Corinthians 15:2---King James Version (KJV)
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    Hebrews 12:15---King James Version (KJV)
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

    1 Peter 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The scriptures state His fellowship is conditional upon our walk in the light:

    1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Being "faithful" is obeying God.



    Not only to hold firm--but that salvation is conditional upon it:

    Hebrews 3:14--King James Version (KJV)
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;



    Is a "true faith" necessary for salvation?



    Again--the scriptures state that enduring to the end is a condition of salvation:

    1 Corinthians 15:2---King James Version (KJV)
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    Hebrews 12:15---King James Version (KJV)
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

    1 Peter 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    Hi DB,

    First, I must say that I appreciate the discussion and that we can disagree without bitterness. But I guess we will never agree because we have different idea's of who Jesus is. He is Lord, Eternal God and Savior. It is He who saves us and keeps us for we cannot do it ourselves. Enduring is not a condition of salvation it is the result of salvation.
    Jude 1:24-25
    "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
    And to present you faultless
    Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
    To God our Savior,Who alone is wise,
    Be glory and majesty,
    Dominion and power,
    Both now and forever.
    Amen."

  5. #30
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThe scriptures state His fellowship is conditional upon our walk in the light:

    1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Being "faithful" is obeying God.

    Not only to hold firm--but that salvation is conditional upon it:

    Hebrews 3:14--King James Version (KJV)
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Is a "true faith" necessary for salvation?

    Again--the scriptures state that enduring to the end is a condition of salvation:

    1 Corinthians 15:2---King James Version (KJV)
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    Hebrews 12:15---King James Version (KJV)
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

    1 Peter 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi DB,

    First, I must say that I appreciate the discussion and that we can disagree without bitterness.
    Hi Disciple.

    Thanks--I believe that is not only possible--but necessary, if the Spirit is maintained.

    But I guess we will never agree because we have different idea's of who Jesus is. He is Lord, Eternal God and Savior.
    IMO--I don't believe we differ on who God the Son is--but what the gospel of Jesus Christ is.

    I'm convinced the faith alone have very little in common with the Biblical NT--and offer up a gospel the Biblical NT testifies against. I know that may sound stiff--but it is true.

    And that is my point here in posting the scriptures--to show it defies faith alone theology--but is very friendly to LDS theology.

    Enduring is not a condition of salvation it is the result of salvation.
    Disciple--this is an example of what I am referring to--offering doctrines that come in direct conflict with the scriptures:

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    How do you reconcile that to your postulation?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Disciple.

    Thanks--I believe that is not only possible--but necessary, if the Spirit is maintained.



    IMO--I don't believe we differ on who God the Son is--but what the gospel of Jesus Christ is.

    I'm convinced the faith alone have very little in common with the Biblical NT--and offer up a gospel the Biblical NT testifies against. I know that may sound stiff--but it is true.

    And that is my point here in posting the scriptures--to show it defies faith alone theology--but is very friendly to LDS theology.



    Disciple--this is an example of what I am referring to--offering doctrines that come in direct conflict with the scriptures:

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    How do you reconcile that to your postulation?
    How do we endure to the end? By our own power or will? Of course we can't. Those that endure are kept from stumbling (Jude 1:24-25), those that don't endure are exposed as those who were false. 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Again does God need proof of our salvation by our endurance? No it is a witness that He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world. We do not have to strive to stay saved, don't you see that we could not stay saved by our own power? Our obedience and love for God is because of our salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    How do we endure to the end? By our own power or will? Of course we can't. Those that endure are kept from stumbling (Jude 1:24-25), those that don't endure are exposed as those who were false.
    But that only connects enduring to the end with salvation.


    Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Again does God need proof of our salvation by our endurance? No it is a witness that He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world. We do not have to strive to stay saved, don't you see that we could not stay saved by our own power? Our obedience and love for God is because of our salvation.
    The scriptures reverse that order:

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
    36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But that only connects enduring to the end with salvation.


    Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



    The scriptures reverse that order:

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
    36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
    Hello DB,

    Perhaps I am not understanding you, can you explain or define how one endures to the end? What shows in the life of one who endures to the end, works, righteousness, can one look at a person and say, "he is enduring"? Or is it something that only God really knows? Can I think I'm enduring yet be deceived and can I cause others to believe that I am enduring when I am not. I guess what I am asking is who decides who is "enduring" and who is not?

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    Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through faith without works? A dead faith saves?
    In order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.

    A functioning faith operates as follows:
    You are out in a wilderness and are at the point of starvation and death. Someone finds you and gets you into their home and puts you at a table with food and water that will keep you from death if you eat it. You could have faith that if you eat and drink what has been provided you will not die. If you fail to do the work of eating and drinking your faith is not functioning. Faith without works is dead.

    Faith and the functioning work is what is needed for salvation. There is nothing that you do except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Believing is the functioning faith that God requires of you and he, by grace, saves you. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Faith and a functioning work attached to that faith equals faith that is not dead. Dead faith nor works saves anyone.

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hello DB,

    Perhaps I am not understanding you, can you explain or define how one endures to the end? What shows in the life of one who endures to the end, works, righteousness, can one look at a person and say, "he is enduring"? Or is it something that only God really knows? Can I think I'm enduring yet be deceived and can I cause others to believe that I am enduring when I am not. I guess what I am asking is who decides who is "enduring" and who is not?
    Good morning Disciple.

    I believe Jesus taught this doctrine:

    John 14----King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    John 15---King James Version (KJV)
    10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
    14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    Disciple--there is a doctrine in the world today that preaches that one is saved independent of what they do--and it is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind. As the scriptures state--all will be judged according to their works--and that for life or ****ation.

    John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    In order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.
    One cannot be saved through dead faith:

    James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    I know the faith alone preach one is saved through dead faith(faith alone)--but it is a false doctrine:

    James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    One cannot be saved through dead faith:

    James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    If you had read and remembered what it is that you read you would have noticed that I have already stated that fact. (Dead faith nor works saves anyone)

    You have wasted your time arguing the basic statement that we both agree on. Your time would be better served by questioning what I have said about a functioning faith that has its own work that causes the faith to be a faith that is functioning and not dead. I think that you have a problem with that idea but have not questioned it.



    I know the faith alone preach one is saved through dead faith(faith alone)--but it is a false doctrine:

    James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Unfortunately for you, you know no such thing, you have made an ***umption based on bad information and not reading what the Bible is clearly stating. You are looking at a few verses that by themselves can support your opinion but you either fail to pay attention to verses that contradict your opinion or you just simply ignore them.

    Please explain to me how your opinion can be correct, works is required for salvation when Ephesians 2:8 and 9 most clearly and definitely say the exact opposite of what you are saying.

    Alanmolstad posted a video featuring Walter Martian that explains clearly justification by works. The extra biblical books that the LDS use all contradict the Bible so you are doomed to confusion until you realize that the Bible is the only book that is God’s word without contradiction if taken in the context as it is written.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    If you had read and remembered what it is that you read you would have noticed that I have already stated that fact. (Dead faith nor works saves anyone)

    You have wasted your time arguing the basic statement that we both agree on. Your time would be better served by questioning what I have said about a functioning faith that has its own work that causes the faith to be a faith that is functioning and not dead. I think that you have a problem with that idea but have not questioned it.
    Hi Saxon.

    The idea is that God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him--verses the theology of the faith alone that preaches a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

    There is no works in the faith the faith alone believe they are saved through.

    dberrie----I know the faith alone preach one is saved through dead faith(faith alone)--but it is a false doctrine:

    James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Unfortunately for you, you know no such thing, you have made an ***umption based on bad information and not reading what the Bible is clearly stating.
    Two points here:

    1) It's not an ***umption--the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works. That is why it is called sola fide:

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone."

    If you disagree--please list for us what works you believe is added to faith in salvation, in the faith alone theology.

    2) The faith alone have precious little in common with the Bible--an appeal to it will only produce a defiance to faith alone theology:

    1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
    16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Please explain to me how your opinion can be correct, works is required for salvation when Ephesians 2:8 and 9 most clearly and definitely say the exact opposite of what you are saying.
    Ephesians states we are not saved by works. That in no way denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works:

    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    The extra biblical books that the LDS use all contradict the Bible so you are doomed to confusion until you realize that the Bible is the only book that is God’s word without contradiction if taken in the context as it is written.
    You should be given an opportunity to back up that claim. What do you find in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible?

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    Ephesians states we are not saved by works. That in no way denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works:

    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    Ephesians does state that we are not saved by works as you have just confirmed. Now that you have stated the obvious, how can you still claim that we are saved by works? Ephesians 2:10 seals the fact that we are not saved by works by telling us that the saved are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. We are not saved by works but we are saved to do good works. You have it all backwards.

    Romans 8:9 tells us if we do not have the Holy Spirit we are none of his. Only the saved have the Holy Spirit (See Romans 8:9). We are saved by grace through faith. By having faith in Christ we have obeyed him. Acts 16:30 and 31 tells us what we must do to be saved. It is simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. By believing we have obeyed and exercised faith through which we are saved. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



    You should be given an opportunity to back up that claim. What do you find in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible?
    I have read the Book of Mormon and have rejected it because it contradicts the Bible. I am sorry that I didn’t keep it not thinking that I would need to argue it. I am sure that there are others that are currently posting that may be able to quote book chapter and verse.

    I do know that every Mormon male hopes to become a God but that won’t happen because there is only one God and he does not know any others because there is none. (See Isaiah 44:8) That false teaching contradicts the Bible and there is no light in those that teach false teachings. (See Isaiah 8:20)

    Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

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    Hi Saxon.

    The idea is that God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him--verses the theology of the faith alone that preaches a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

    There is no works in the faith the faith alone believe they are saved through.
    That is your idea, not the Bible’s idea. If a person has faith and does nothing about it then yes, it is a dead faith. Faith requires a work, just as the person sitting at the table with faith that if he eats he will live. If there is no works with the faith that person will die. The work required in this case is to eat the food and drink the water that has been presented. You can have faith in the food and water all you want but if you don’t eat and drink, you die. A person must do what they have faith in or the faith that is claimed is dead.

    Salvation is a point in life. There is a before salvation and there is an after salvation. Faith does not save you. Works do not save you. God by his grace saves you. You do not work for grace because grace is a gift. Gifts are free. Salvation is free, not of works. Works are rewarded with payment, not gifts.

    A none believer will not obey God because to him that believes not it is foolishness. You don’t obey what you consider foolish and either do I. God gives the Holy Spirit to those that believe. Believing is what God requires of us. So if you believe then you have obeyed God and by grace he saves you. Faith does not save you. Believing does not save you. Works do not save you. God saves you by grace.



    Two points here:

    1) It's not an ***umption--the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works. That is why it is called sola fide:
    It is a total ***umption. You need to describe the works that save you. Keep in mind Ephesians 2:8 and 9. You don’t preach faith alone and you make no effort to connect with the Bible when you are shown that what you are claiming it says is not what it says. With Ephesians 2:8 and 9 it is totally impossible to be saved by any kind of works.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone."

    If you disagree--please list for us what works you believe is added to faith in salvation, in the faith alone theology.

    2) The faith alone have precious little in common with the Bible--an appeal to it will only produce a defiance to faith alone theology:

    1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
    16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    The functioning faith that I have previously explained is still my answer. That is faith in the context of faith alone.

    You need to list the works that you feel are the works that save then I can continue to present my case.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Ephesians states we are not saved by works. That in no way denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works:

    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    You should be given an opportunity to back up that claim. What do you find in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Ephesians does state that we are not saved by works as you have just confirmed. Now that you have stated the obvious, how can you still claim that we are saved by works?
    Hi Saxon.

    Cite, please. Could you please give us a cite where I have claimed one is saved by works? My claim remains the same--one is saved by God's grace--and that grace goes to them that obey Him:

    Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Ephesians 2:10 seals the fact that we are not saved by works by telling us that the saved are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
    The scriptures state we are saved by God's grace--not faith, works, obedience, trust, belief, endurance--but by God's grace. And that grace goes to them that obey Him:

    Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

    We are not saved by works but we are saved to do good works. You have it all backwards.
    What is backwards is the belief we are saved through a faith without works.

    The scriptures are plain--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Could you give us an example of God giving His salvational grace--as a personal reception of eternal life--to the disobedient?

    Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Galatians 6:7-9King James Version (KJV)
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
    9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


    Could you explain for us what you consider "backwards" about that?

    Romans 8:9 tells us if we do not have the Holy Spirit we are none of his.
    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    And???

    Only the saved have the Holy Spirit (See Romans 8:9). We are saved by grace through faith.
    The faith alone preach that's a dead faith--a faith without works--that saves:

    James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Saxon.

    The idea is that God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him--verses the theology of the faith alone that preaches a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

    There is no works in the faith the faith alone believe they are saved through.
    Two points here:

    1) It's not an ***umption--the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works. That is why it is called sola fide:

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone."

    If you disagree--please list for us what works you believe is added to faith in salvation, in the faith alone theology.

    2) The faith alone have precious little in common with the Bible--an appeal to it will only produce a defiance to faith alone theology:

    1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
    16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    That is your idea, not the Bible’s idea. If a person has faith and does nothing about it then yes, it is a dead faith. Faith requires a work, just as the person sitting at the table with faith that if he eats he will live.
    But that only connects works and faith together in salvation.

    Again--could you collate that with the faith alone theology--where one is saved through a faith without works?

    If there is no works with the faith that person will die.
    That is a hard connect between works and salvation.

    The work required in this case is to eat the food and drink the water that has been presented.
    Would this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

    Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Is it your theology they were saved prior to the remission of sins?

    You can have faith in the food and water all you want but if you don’t eat and drink, you die. A person must do what they have faith in or the faith that is claimed is dead.
    Again--that is Biblical and LDS theology--not faith alone theology. The faith alone claim a salvation independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. That is why they claim a "sola fide" theology--one is saved through a faith without works--faith alone.

    Salvation is a point in life. There is a before salvation and there is an after salvation. Faith does not save you. Works do not save you. God by his grace saves you. You do not work for grace because grace is a gift. Gifts are free. Salvation is free, not of works. Works are rewarded with payment, not gifts.
    So--are you claiming the Biblical record is in error?

    Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

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    But that only connects works and faith together in salvation.

    Again--could you collate that with the faith alone theology--where one is saved through a faith without works?
    All that you have said in the quote above is true until you take Ephesians 2:8 to 10 into consideration. Grace is the stand alone that saves and that is God’s grace to mankind. God wants to save but will only save those that have faith in Christ. You can put in any conditions that you want as to what faith is but the only thing that counts is what God considers faith to be. When we get it right to his standards then by grace he saves us. God has kept it simple, “For by grace are ye saved through faith”. He also states that it is a gift, not of works. You can add all the works that you want but it is still a gift and not of works.

    Ephesians 2:10 sets the works for after a person is saved, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works”. The works are after you are saved not to get you saved.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



    That is a hard connect between works and salvation.
    No, that is a hard connect of the living faith that God expects us to have in Christ.



    Would this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

    Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Is it your theology they were saved prior to the remission of sins?
    Acts 10: 46 uses “for” where “because” could be used. Salvation comes before any works (See Ephesians 2:9) so this for is used in the same sense and can be stated because of the remission of sins. Baptism does not save anyone. Salvation is concurrent with the remission of sins.

    The obedience to God comes from believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) No works to get saved but plenty of works after you are saved. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10)

    Acts 10: 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Acts 10: 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    Acts 10: 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



    Again--that is Biblical and LDS theology--not faith alone theology. The faith alone claim a salvation independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. That is why they claim a "sola fide" theology--one is saved through a faith without works--faith alone.
    You have a warped concept of salvation. Of course there is obedience to Christ. (See John 3:16) Obedience is to believe in the Son of God, Christ Jesus.

    The work component of faith that makes a living faith is imbedded in faith and is not outside faith. The human’s part of the salvation equation is faith alone, in Christ alone.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



    So--are you claiming the Biblical record is in error?

    Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    No. I am claiming that the Mormon record with all its extra-biblical books and ignorance of the Bible is in error.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--are you claiming the Biblical record is in error?

    Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    No. I am claiming that the Mormon record with all its extra-biblical books and ignorance of the Bible is in error.
    How does that somehow negate what the Biblical NT testifies to?

    Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    You realize Acts is found in the Bible?

    Saxon--running to kick at the LDS won't solve your problem of the Biblical record testifying against you:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    Hi Saxon.

    Cite, please. Could you please give us a cite where I have claimed one is saved by works? My claim remains the same--one is saved by God's grace--and that grace goes to them that obey Him:

    Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Every time that you deny that faith alone in Christ alone tells me that you believe that there is works involved with salvation. The bible is clear, not of works (See Ephesians 2:9)

    Your Matthew quote doesn’t sound like salvation but they all missed it and are being cast into the fire.

    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



    The scriptures state we are saved by God's grace--not faith, works, obedience, trust, belief, endurance--but by God's grace. And that grace goes to them that obey Him:

    Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
    You are still strategically missing the whole quote. It says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith”. You seem to have the grace part down In Accordance With (IAW) your quote above. What you seem to miss is “through faith”. There are two parts to salvation, God’s and man’s. God loves us and wants to save us. All that God wants from man is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. If we, through faith believe in Christ we have obeyed God and he, by his grace, saves us. After we are saved, created in Christ Jesus, we are to do the works that God has ordained that we should do. Salvation that is not of works comes first, then the works God has ordained that we should do comes after salvation.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



    What is backwards is the belief we are saved through a faith without works.
    Is this not a claim that you believe in salvation by works?



    The scriptures are plain--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    See the answer to the second quote.



    Could you give us an example of God giving His salvational grace--as a personal reception of eternal life--to the disobedient?
    See the answer to the second quote.



    Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Galatians 6:7-9King James Version (KJV)
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
    9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


    Could you explain for us what you consider "backwards" about that?
    Your out of context use of the scripture that you have quoted.



    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    And???
    And??? And what? See the answer to the second quote.



    The faith alone preach that's a dead faith--a faith without works--that saves:

    James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    Now I am supposed to ***ume that any time that faith is mentioned in the Bible that it is a dead faith?? That is only in you imagination.
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    You are out of context with the whole Bible.

    Salvation is free with no strings attached. Works come after salvation.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Every time that you deny that faith alone in Christ alone
    Hi Saxon:

    There is but one mention of the phrase "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical NT:

    James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    That's it, Saxon. There is not another mention of "faith alone" found in the Bible.

    tells me that you believe that there is works involved with salvation.
    Obviously--there is works involved in salvation:

    John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

    What is there about the testimony of Christ you don't believe? Christ testified all men will be judged according to works--AFTER DEATH--and that fopr life or ****ation.

    Those who obey Christ--God extends His salvational grace to.

    Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    The bible is clear, not of works (See Ephesians 2:9)
    That is correct. Not of works, faith, belief, obedience, trust, endurance, etc--but God's grace. And that grace goes to those who obey Him:

    Hebrews 5:9King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Your Matthew quote doesn’t sound like salvation but they all missed it and are being cast into the fire.
    If they missed it--this is the reason given:

    Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[quote]

    You are still strategically missing the whole quote.It says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith”.
    Not of faith, works, obedience, endurance, trust, etc. But by God's grace--which those who obey Him receive.

    Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    You aren't thinking the term "faith" used in Ephesians2 is a reference to dead faith--are you?

    James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How does that somehow negate what the Biblical NT testifies to?

    Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    And???
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    And??? And what?
    And--if Acts5:32 is true--faith alone theology is false.

    Now I am supposed to ***ume that any time that faith is mentioned in the Bible that it is a dead faith?? That is only in you imagination.
    Obviously the faith alone do believe it is a reference to dead faith--they preach a salvation through a faith without works.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone.

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    Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.
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