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  1. #51
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    I have answered all of this for you before, either on this thread or another. If you disagree with the answers, don't just ask the same questions over with different words, challenge the statements that you disagree with directly. I do not want to wast my time giving you the same answers that you do not satisfy your questions over and over.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.
    Again--were they saved before or after the remission of sins?

    Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    I have answered all of this for you before, either on this thread or another. If you disagree with the answers, don't just ask the same questions over with different words, challenge the statements that you disagree with directly. I do not want to wast my time giving you the same answers that you do not satisfy your questions over and over.
    Hi Saxon. I find this the typical approach whenever one is cornered by the scriptures. The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and that defies faith alone theology:

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Could you explain for us what is it about water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is there about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

  4. #54
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    Hi Saxon. I find this the typical approach whenever one is cornered by the scriptures. The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and that defies faith alone theology:
    I am not cornered by scripture. What I find to be the biggest hindrance is your blatant lack of knowledge of the Bible. The Bible has never been the strong suit of Mormons as you waste time studying everything but the Bible. The most I have seen Mormons use the Bible is when thy try to discredit Christian doctrine with Mormon tales.

    John 6:29 says that the work of God is that you believe on Jesus Christ. When you do this work of God you have obeyed him and the faith that you display in Christ is the faith through which the grace of God saves. No works required; just faith.

    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Could you explain for us what is it about water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is there about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?
    Salvation is the remission of sins. What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See John 6:29 and Acts 16:30 and 31)

    Baptism is a work that you feel is a need in order to be saved. Baptism is for those that believe, the saved. (See Acts 8:36 to 38) When you say that baptism is needed you are in opposition to John 6:29 and Acts 16:30 and 31. And don’t forget Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that flat out says that salvation is not of works. You can keep on repeating Acts 2:38 but it is to no avail until Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is ignored, which you are constantly doing. What part of “not of works” do you not understand???

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
    Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
    Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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  5. #55
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    Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.

    I have answered your question a number of times. Respond to my statement with out asking the same questions.
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  6. #56
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    The early church fathers were not the inspired writers of the Bible. They were wrong on the baptism for salvation. See the Bible.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    I am not cornered by scripture. What I find to be the biggest hindrance is your blatant lack of knowledge of the Bible. The Bible has never been the strong suit of Mormons as you waste time studying everything but the Bible. The most I have seen Mormons use the Bible is when thy try to discredit Christian doctrine with Mormon tales.
    Hi Saxon.

    What do you find in God giving His salvational grace to them that repent and are water baptized as a "Mormon tale"?

    Saxon--when you state "Christianity"--are you referring to the man-made doctrines of the faith alone--or the real Christianity of the Biblical NT?

    John 6:29 says that the work of God is that you believe on Jesus Christ. When you do this work of God you have obeyed him and the faith that you display in Christ is the faith through which the grace of God saves.
    What don't you consider in repentance and water baptism, as being belief in Christ?

    Obeying His commandments--as being faith in Christ?

    Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    No works required; just faith.
    IOW--one is saved through dead faith?

    James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Preaching a salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt.

    Salvation is the remission of sins.
    Then salvational grace was granted to them that repented and were water baptized:

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    That defies the faith alone theology.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.

    I have answered your question a number of times. Respond to my statement with out asking the same questions.
    Again--were those of Acts2:38 saved previous to the remission of sins?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 22:16King James Version (KJV)
    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

  9. #59
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    NO, they repented and had their sins remitted then they were baptized in water because of their sins being already remitted.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--were those of Acts2:38 saved previous to the remission of sins?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 22:16King James Version (KJV)
    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    NO, they repented and had their sins remitted then they were baptized in water because of their sins being already remitted.
    Hi Saxon.

    Altering the testimony of the Biblical writers amounts to little less than boundary maintenance. As I have often stated--the faith alone have little in common with the Biblical NT. What is it you are disagreeing with?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 22:16King James Version (KJV)
    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

  11. #61
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    Our basic disagreement is you claim salvation ultimately requires works and state faith without works is dead. I claim that it is not of works lest any man should boast. That is our disagreement.
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  12. #62
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    Hi Saxon.

    What do you find in God giving His salvational grace to them that repent and are water baptized as a "Mormon tale"?
    The Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith. It is not by works. It is a Mormon tale because there is no Bible support that works are involved.



    Saxon--when you state "Christianity"--are you referring to the man-made doctrines of the faith alone--or the real Christianity of the Biblical NT?
    Real Christianity is faith alone in Christ alone. Your works salvation is in opposition to Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



    What don't you consider in repentance and water baptism, as being belief in Christ?

    Obeying His commandments--as being faith in Christ?

    Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    Repentance comes after believing. Who would repent if they didn’t believe? Would a none believer get baptized? This is all done after a person believes. A none believer would be silly to do it if they didn’t believe. As I have pointed out to you all that a person needs to do in order to be saved by the grace of God is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Again, only a believer would obey his commands. To the unbeliever it is foolishness and they will not do what they consider foolishness. (See 1 Corinthians 1:18 and 1 Corinthians 2:14)

    1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



    IOW--one is saved through dead faith?

    James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    What is “IOW”?

    Don’t be silly, we have been conversing long enough that you know that I do not believe that anything is accomplished through dead faith. Either you are trying to annoy me or you are truly displaying an ignorance that can easily be corrected if you are willing to focus on what I have been telling you I believe. You don’t have to agree but it is only good manners to pay attention.



    Preaching a salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt.
    Preaching salvation is an act of obedience just as believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is an act of obedience. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is the act of obedience that God wants before he saves you by his grace.



    Then salvational grace was granted to them that repented and were water baptized:

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    That defies the faith alone theology.
    Grace was granted to them before they repented and were water baptized. Your ***ertion that one needs to do works in order to be saved defies Bible theology.
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  13. #63
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    Its a Mormon trick to get people to debate over Works Vs faith, and not over the fact that Mormons can have tons and tons of very good works and it would not matter a hoot........

    All the works of the Mormon's count for zero,,,zipo..nothing....goose egg

    Mormons have No works, so their Faith Is DEAD!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Our basic disagreement is you claim salvation ultimately requires works and state faith without works is dead. I claim that it is not of works lest any man should boast. That is our disagreement.
    The scriptures are plain as to God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and that faith without works is dead:

    Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    Preaching a salvation through a faith without works(faith alone)-- is not Biblical--end of story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Saxon. What do you find in God giving His salvational grace to them that repent and are water baptized as a "Mormon tale"?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    The Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith. It is not by works. It is a Mormon tale because there is no Bible support that works are involved.
    My questions to you:

    1) What do you consider about repentance and water baptism as not being faith in Christ?

    2) What do you consider about water baptism as not being a work?

    3) What do you consider about the remission of sins as not being the salvational grace of God?

    Real Christianity is faith alone in Christ alone.
    The only time the term "faith alone" is even found in the Bible is found here:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    Your works salvation is in opposition to Ephesians 2:8 and 9.
    Two points here:

    1) "Works salvation" is defined by the faith alone as any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ being necessary for salvation--correct?

    2) Ephesians 2 is only in conflict to a "works salvation"--if one believes the term "faith" found in Ephesians2:8 is a reference to dead faith:

    Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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    My questions to you:

    1) What do you consider about repentance and water baptism as not being faith in Christ?
    Repentance and water baptism requires faith in Christ. This is done after a person is saved, born again. There are three areas that you fail to understand. 1. Lost before salvation. 2. The point of salvation, being saved and 3. After being saved. Where do you do these works that you have mentioned, Repentance is concurrent with salvation and continues to occur after salvation. Water baptism happens after salvation. What unsaved person is going to get baptized with water?



    2) What do you consider about water baptism as not being a work?
    It is a work, but not to buy salvation as it is a gift.



    3) What do you consider about the remission of sins as not being the salvational grace of God?
    Tell me what you believe grace to be and then I will be able to answer your question.



    The only time the term "faith alone" is even found in the Bible is found here:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Then let us say it this way, all man can do is respond to God’s offer of salvation is have faith in Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



    Two points here:

    1) "Works salvation" is defined by the faith alone as any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ being necessary for salvation--correct?
    That is correct, there are no works that man can do that is necessary for salvation.



    2) Ephesians 2 is only in conflict to a "works salvation"--if one believes the term "faith" found in Ephesians2:8 is a reference to dead faith:

    Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Why would Paul reference a dead faith for salvation? Your problem is that you have no idea what faith is.

    Faith is like water. Water is H2O. Take away hydrogen and you have only oxygen. Take away oxygen and you have hydrogen. Faith is belief and a work. Take away belief and you have work. Take away work and you have belief.

    The person sitting at table that has food and drink on it can believe that if he eats and drinks he will not starve to death. If the work of eating is not carried out he will die. Add the eating to believing and that is faith. Your faith with an extra work like baptism is not what faith is. The extra work that James is speaking of is there to show men the faith that the person has. You are not correct In Accordance With (IAW) the Bible thought.
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  17. #67
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    What is “salvational grace”? Is grace something that you can handle? Does God have a large jar of grace that he distributes from?

    What if I told you that grace does not save?

    I don’t think that you realize what grace is. End of story.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Repentance and water baptism requires faith in Christ. This is done after a person is saved, born again.
    Hi Saxon.

    Then you believe one is saved prior to the remission of sins?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---2) What do you consider about water baptism as not being a work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    It is a work, but not to buy salvation as it is a gift.
    Labeling water baptism a work, or the remission of sins a gift won't touch the faith alone problem. It only compounds the problem for the faith alone. That only confirms God gives His salvational gift of the remission of sins to those who do His work.

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---3) What do you consider about the remission of sins as not being the salvational grace of God?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Tell me what you believe grace to be and then I will be able to answer your question.
    I believe the remission of sins is God's grace--something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves. Again--the Biblical text has God giving His salvational grace of the remission of sins, to those who repent and are baptized:

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Then let us say it this way, all man can do is respond to God’s offer of salvation is have faith in Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    And was this integral to that belief?

    Acts 16:33-34---King James Version (KJV)
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    That is correct, there are no works that man can do that is necessary for salvation.
    Then you believe one is saved through dead faith?

    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Matthew 7:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Why would Paul reference a dead faith for salvation?
    He wouldn't. That is the faith alone claim--one is saved through dead faith.

    Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

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    Define faith.
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    No, I don't. The problem is that you do not understand biblical faith. Joseph smith's version of faith is nowhere near Bible faith.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then you believe one is saved through dead faith?

    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    No, I don't.
    Then please list what acts of obedience you believe is necessary for God's grace unto salvation.

    Hebrews 3:14King James Version (KJV)
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

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    Then please list what acts of obedience you believe is necessary for God's grace unto salvation.
    The only act of obedience that God is looking for in order that he will save you is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul and Silas were asked, “What must I do to be saved?” the answer was given, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”. (See Acts 16:29 to 31)

    That was the only answer that was given. There were no extra works involved. God saves us only because he is gracious towards man and the ones that he saves are the ones that respond to him in faith. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) God does the saving, not grace or faith.

    Because Ephesians 2:9 says, “Not of works”, there can be no works that are required for salvation. Romans 5:15 also declares salvation a free gift. Gifts are not earned by works as that would nullify grace. (See Romans 11:6)

    Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many

    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



    Hebrews 3:14King James Version (KJV)
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    These verses are reminding the saved that they, as saved persons, must hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end and endure to the end. If a saved person does not remain steadfast and endure to the end they will not remain saved. I do not agree with Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    The only act of obedience that God is looking for in order that he will save you is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
    So--repentance and water baptism--and the remission of sins is not necessary?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. The rest is the result of being saved. You get saved first and then being in a right relationship with God repentance and water baptism and the remission of sins comes after. The lost do not repent. The lost do not get baptized. The lost do not have their sins remitted. that is only for the saved.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

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