Let's discuss it

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Saxon. Did you miss my above post?

I believe the remission of one's sins is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Saxon

You should really explain what you believe grace to be because “salvational” grace mean nothing to me. I can put salvational (if there is such a term) and grace together and come up with something but the chances are it isn’t going to be what you intend it to be.

Salvational grace is not a Bible term. You need to explain it and where it comes from.

Hi Saxon.

I use the term "salvational grace" to mean a grace that is necessary for salvation to occur, IE--such as the forgiveness of sins.

I believe all of mankind receives God's grace in some form--such as good health, a talent, a beautiful sunset, etc. But I don't believe that brings eternal life.

So, I distinguish between a grace that can come to anyone, and a grace that is connected to eternal life, in "salvational grace".

The salvational grace of God comes to those who obey Him:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[Saxon]

Where is your authority to insert "salvational" before grace. There is no hint in scripture that grace is nothing but grace.

[disciple]

I like the way the NLT translates 1 Peter 1:2 " God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ."
You can obey as a result of grace.

[Saxon]

That is it to a tee. 1611 or close to it can be clarified by a little up to date English!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Saxon.

I use the term "salvational grace" to mean a grace that is necessary for salvation to occur, IE--such as the forgiveness of sins.

I believe all of mankind receives God's grace in some form--such as good health, a talent, a beautiful sunset, etc. But I don't believe that brings eternal life.

So, I distinguish between a grace that can come to anyone, and a grace that is connected to eternal life, in "salvational grace".

The salvational grace of God comes to those who obey Him:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Where is your authority to insert "salvational" before grace. There is no hint in scripture that grace is nothing but grace.

Was this grace?

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If there is no distinction between grace--then all of mankind have His grace.

Saxon--your response does not even make sense. God blesses all of mankind with some form of His grace--if it's not just life itself. I believe it is a sin not to confess the Lord's Hand in all things that are good.

[Saxon]

Was this grace?

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If there is no distinction between grace--then all of mankind have His grace.

Saxon--your response does not even make sense. God blesses all of mankind with some form of His grace--if it's not just life itself. I believe it is a sin not to confess the Lord's Hand in all things that are good.

I would say that the grace of God is an at***ude of grace that God has towards man. If grace is not grace then what is it? You seem to think that you know what grace is better than I do, so you explain what you believe the grace of God is. Feel free to be detailed about it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I would say that the grace of God is an at***ude of grace that God has towards man. If grace is not grace then what is it? You seem to think that you know what grace is better than I do, so you explain what you believe the grace of God is. Feel free to be detailed about it.

I already have posted a number of scriptures that exemplify the grace of God--and whenever I do--it seems to meet with a taint so!!! response.

So--let's start here:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

[Saxon]

You use this verse in an out of context manner because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works. In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I already have posted a number of scriptures that exemplify the grace of God--and whenever I do--it seems to meet with a taint so!!! response.

So--let's start here:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

Originally Posted by Saxon

You use this verse in an out of context manner

Hi Saxon.

What do you consider out of context about Acts2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works.

What do you find in Ephesians2:8 that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

What does Ephesians2:8 present, that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

What do you consider out of context about Acts2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. The answer to your question is in the post that you are responding to.
Because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works. In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

To fail to understand this leads me to think that you have no concept of logic whatsoever. If it is stated that it is by grace through faith and NOT of works it is not possible that because of obedience salvation is received. The term “grace” does not allow that to happen. Grace is the opposite of works.

What do you find in Ephesians2:8 that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

What does Ephesians2:8 present, that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Those that obey, God will save, but it is only because God has an at***ude of grace toward man that he saves anyone. Because you obey God does not put God under obligation to save anyone. We are obligated to obey God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ because that is what God had decreed. The Bible states that salvation is a gift of God and Joseph Smith says salvation has to be earned by doing things to obligate God to save.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The verses that you quote are good Bible verses but your use of them is totally out of context, they are not supporting a "by what you do" salvation.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. ... you have no concept of logic whatsoever.....

Are all Nova Scotians as nice as you are?

[Saxon]

Are all Nova Scotians as nice as you are?

Most are nicer but there are some that are worse. Now if you are judging my niceness value by what you quoted, “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. ... you have no concept of logic whatsoever.....”, we should take a few things into perspective.

You have quoted me leaving out much of the text of what was in the full statement. This maneuver gives a false impression of what the total meaning of what I said. Would it not have been more correct to have also brought into the equation the fact that deberrie 2000 has not addressed anything that I have stated but asks a question that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.

He has asked, “What do you consider out of context about Acts 2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?” Acts 2:38 has nor dealings with “salvational grace” if Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is a true biblical statement.

I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 makes it more that clear that salvation is by grace. Grace of God makes it a gift. A gift is free to the receiver and cannot be offered to anyone because they repented or were baptized because that would change what is clearly a gift into wages, something earned. (See Romans 11:6)

This has been explained to deberrie 2000 on many occasions. This is my response to all his statements that he has made from his own thoughts to Bible verses that he quotes that he uses to put forth the idea that a person has to do some sort of an act in order for God to save that person.

I do take the Christian Bible serious and I want to do what God would have me do and that includes shocking someone into the truth of the Bible. Now your statement above intimates that I am rude. I very well may be rude but the intention is honorable. If I am right on this matter that means that deberrie 2000 is wrong. When there are two people with points of view that are 180 degrees out of phase, someone is wrong.

When I have given this type of answer with the reference to Ephesians 2:8 and 9 I would expect a response to my answer, not more verses that would cause me to repeat the same answer. Would it not make more sense for deberrie 2000 to attempt to correct me about Ephesians 2:8 and 9 instead of ignoring it with more verses that would contradict Ephesians 2:8 and 9?

I have told him of my conclusions about his comprehension of what he reads and his understanding of logic to provoke him to challenge me about the meaning of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 instead of basically repeating the same basic question the requires the same answer. I am not really of the low degree on the nice scale as you may think.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Saxon.

What do you consider out of context about Acts2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

What do you find in Ephesians2:8 that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

What does Ephesians2:8 present, that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Originally Posted by Saxon

Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting.

This seems to be more of the pat answers the faith alone resort to whenever scriptures are posted that defy their theology.

It does nothing to answer the bell, nor to explain why the faith alone cannot comport their theology to the Biblical NT testimony of the NT writers.

Because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works. In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

How does your taint so!! response somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

We have agreed that it's by God's grace we are saved. The question left to answer is--who does God extend this salvational grace to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology--and Ephesians2:8 can't save you from that dilemma.

[Saxon]

See my response to Phoenix. Feel free to comment on that as it is for you as well.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology--and Ephesians2:8 can't save you from that dilemma.

Explain why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 doesn't contradict you. I am truly interested in what you have to say.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Most are nicer but there are some that are worse.

Some of them might be worse, but can any of them be more dogmatically absolutist in their rhetoric?

Now if you are judging my niceness value by what you quoted, “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. ... you have no concept of logic whatsoever.....”, we should take a few things into perspective.

Okay, but the words I bolded make it hard to see where you took things into perspective. Sweeping generalizations suggest a lack of proper perspective, one might say.

You have quoted me leaving out much of the text of what was in the full statement. This maneuver gives a false impression of what the total meaning of what I said.

Not really. I just quoted the most insulting parts of your post, because they were the most insulting parts.

Would it not have been more correct to have also brought into the equation the fact that deberrie 2000 has not addressed anything that I have stated but asks a question that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.

***uming that is an accurate summary of what he did or failed to do, it's not enough evidence to convict him of having a total inability to comprehend what he read, and that he has no concept of logic whatsoever.

He has asked, “What do you consider out of context about Acts 2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?” Acts 2:38 has nor dealings with “salvational grace” if Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is a true biblical statement.

If the Bible is correct where it states that Jesus became the author of SALVATION to all who OBEY Him, (and I believe the Bible is correct about that), then the Bible does make a pretty solid connection between obeying Christ, and being saved. In fact, if you can show me one person who will inherit the kingdom of God, who did it WITHOUT obeying Christ, I will be extremely impressed.

I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted.

That seems like a false dichotomy where you're saying that the only 2 possibilities are either

1. The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life, or
2. The Bible does teach it, but does so because the Bible teaches false doctrines and contradicts itself.

I think there are other possibilities besides those two.

Ephesians 2:8 and 9 makes it more that clear that salvation is by grace. Grace of God makes it a gift. A gift is free to the receiver and cannot be offered to anyone because they repented or were baptized because that would change what is clearly a gift into wages, something earned. (See Romans 11:6)
This has been explained to deberrie 2000 on many occasions.

Other Bible verses make is clear that eternal life is conditioned upon obedience. If you obey Christ, and as a result escape eternal ****ation, that's not necessarily a case of being paid wages for doing work. If you end up in hell, that is the wages of choosing to sin.

Proverbs 10:16
The labor of the righteous leads to life, The wages of the wicked to sin.

“Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, And whose hope is the Lord." Jer. 17

Now your statement above intimates that I am rude.

Okay.

I very well may be rude but the intention is honorable.

What is honorable about telling someone “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting" and "You have no concept of logic whatsoever” ??

If I am right on this matter that means that deberrie 2000 is wrong. When there are two people with points of view that are 180 degrees out of phase, someone is wrong.

So it's possible that YOU are the one who is wrong. If you are the one who is wrong, does it mean that you have a revolting, total inability to comprehend what you read? And that you have no concept of logic whatsoever ??

[Saxon]

If the Bible is correct where it states that Jesus became the author of SALVATION to all who OBEY Him, (and I believe the Bible is correct about that), then the Bible does make a pretty solid connection between obeying Christ, and being saved. In fact, if you can show me one person who will inherit the kingdom of God, who did it WITHOUT obeying Christ, I will be extremely impressed.

The point is that all who are saved are obedient to Christ, but was it their obedience that saved them or the grace of God?

That seems like a false dichotomy where you're saying that the only 2 possibilities are either

1. The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life, or
2. The Bible does teach it, but does so because the Bible teaches false doctrines and contradicts itself.

I think there are other possibilities besides those two.

I have not said that there are 2 possibilities. There is only one, The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life. I don’t see how you got the idea that I left room for 2. Please explain how you have come to that conclusion. What other possibilities do you think there are?

Other Bible verses make is clear that eternal life is conditioned upon obedience. If you obey Christ, and as a result escape eternal ****ation, that's not necessarily a case of being paid wages for doing work. If you end up in hell, that is the wages of choosing to sin.

Proverbs 10:16
The labor of the righteous leads to life, The wages of the wicked to sin.

“Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, And whose hope is the Lord." Jer. 17

I am not one that believes in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I do believe that if a person is a Christian then they are obligated to live a life that reflects a Christian at***ude as best they can with God’s help. If a person is not being a Christian then that person has fallen from grace and is lost. In Proverbs 10:16, the righteous are saved and their labour will lead them to life after their physical death. This is an example of works after salvation.

I have never seen the unsaved trust in the Lord or who have hope in the Lord. Both these verses are describing those that are saved and are working good works because they are saved.

What is honorable about telling someone “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting" and "You have no concept of logic whatsoever” ??

I am convinced that I am right about my beliefs concerning the Bible, just as you and deberrie2000 are convinced that you are right. I have hoped that the shock value would provoke him to challenge me on my stand concerning Ephesians 2:8 to 10. He does not, at this point, wish to engage. I feel that it is the key to the whole discussion but he says nothing about it and continues to ask similar questions that require the same answer. I am only interested in his eternal wellbeing. I would hope that you two are interested in mine as well. I am not here to win and argument or play a game, a soul’s eternal destiny is way too important for that. I may seem to be a bit on the unorthodox side of good manners but as they say, all is fair in love and war. This is war but I do not consider you as the enemy. Try to keep that in mind.

So it's possible that YOU are the one who is wrong. If you are the one who is wrong, does it mean that you have a revolting, total inability to comprehend what you read? And that you have no concept of logic whatsoever ??

If I am wrong; I totally agree with you. But, I think that I am right.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

This seems to be more of the pat answers the faith alone resort to whenever scriptures are posted that defy their theology.

It does nothing to answer the bell, nor to explain why the faith alone cannot comport their theology to the Biblical NT testimony of the NT writers.

How does your taint so!! response somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

We have agreed that it's by God's grace we are saved. The question left to answer is--who does God extend this salvational grace to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology--and Ephesians2:8 can't save you from that dilemma.

Originally Posted by Saxon

See my response to Phoenix. Feel free to comment on that as it is for you as well.

I have responded a number of times to the taint so!! responses:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Explain why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 doesn't contradict you. I am truly interested in what you have to say.

It's not me--but the scriptures that come into contradiction with the theology you espouse:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Ephesians2 in no way contradicts it's the obedient to Christ which the grace goes to. It states that salvation comes by grace--not of works. It does not deny that God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him.

For example--do you feel this grace flows through a faith without works?

Ephesians 2:8-9---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Saxon]

I have responded a number of times to the taint so!! responses:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

You are the King of “taint so”. That is all you do is claim taint so but never explain the reasons it taint so. All you have done is quote 1 Timothy 4:16 to support your works salvation theory.

If you bothered to pay attention to the letters to Timothy you would recognize the context they are written in is that they are written to a saved man. The verse that you quoted is telling a saved man to take heed to the doctrine and continue in them. If he continues he will remain in Christ and in remaining in Christ he will save himself upon his physical death. You have not shown anything that states obedience saves, but rather obedience keeps you saved.

What you need to do to impress me is find a Bible verse or verses that show an unsaved person being told to do something to gain salvation. It is not anywhere in the Bible.

It's not me--but the scriptures that come into contradiction with the theology you espouse:

It’s not you? You are the one that is using Bible verses in a manner that is out of context with the rest of the Bible. The Bible as it is written is perfect, but when you make quotes and claim it says something that blatantly contradicts other verses that are painfully clear in what they say then, it is you.

When the Bible is so clear in saying that salvation is a gift and it is not of works and you take a verse out of the blue, without even bothering to check out the context and claim that is says that you need to do something then, it is you.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews and 2 Thessalonians were written to saved people. 2 Thessalonians is speaking of lost people that know not God. You are still responsible for miss using the Bible.

Ephesians2 in no way contradicts it's the obedient to Christ which the grace goes to. It states that salvation comes by grace--not of works. It does not deny that God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him.

For example--do you feel this grace flows through a faith without works?

Ephesians 2:8-9---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2 in major ways contradicts your idea that salvation needs to be gained by obeying, repenting or water baptism or anything else that you may dream up that you think will obligate God to save you.

You said that it states that salvation comes by grace--not of works, what does that mean? Does it somehow really mean that you have to do something (work) to gain salvation? I agree with you that it does not deny that God gives His grace to those who obey Him, but I DO NOT agree with you that it means that God gave his grace because they obey him.

I take it that you ***ume that the writers need to specify what kind of faith it is, be it a dead faith or a live faith each time faith is written into the text. The context is sufficient to tell you that it is not a dead faith. If you can’t see that you need to consider taking advanced lessons in reading. I do not say that to belittle you, just to let you know that the question you ask is not relevant when you consider the context of what you are asking about.

Check out the English definition of “grace”, “faith” and “gift” and then honestly tell me that salvation has to be worked for.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

What you need to do to impress me is find a Bible verse or verses that show an unsaved person being told to do something to gain salvation.It is not anywhere in the Bible.

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know ***uredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2)

Peter told those people what they should do, and what would happen if they did it. It's in the Bible.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The point is that all who are saved are obedient to Christ, but was it their obedience that saved them or the grace of God?

If God saves those who choose to obey Him, obviously it was God who saved them, but if they hadn't chosen to obey God, He wouldn't have saved them. You could say "Well, then they saved themselves" but that's only indirectly true. If it hadn't been for God, their salvation would have been impossible. And if it hadn't been for their choice to obey Him, they wouldn't have been saved. So it's a simple, obvious truth: There is a clear cause-effect relationship between obeying God and being saved. No one who chooses ****ation gets saved, and no one who chooses salvation gets ****ed.

I have not said that there are 2 possibilities.

That seems to be what you implied.

There is only one, The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life. I don’t see how you got the idea that I left room for 2. Please explain how you have come to that conclusion.

You said:
"I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted."
The premise for your belief that it's impossible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, is this: Your belief that the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions.

So you seem to be saying that IF it IS possible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, then the only way that could be possible, would be if the Bible isn't true and free of actual contradictions.

What other possibilities do you think there are?

Here's one: Maybe the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions, but you misunderstood what it was saying, and jumped to the incorrect conclusion that it doesn't mention any conditions for having one's sins remitted.

I am not one that believes in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I do believe that if a person is a Christian then they are obligated to live a life that reflects a Christian at***ude as best they can with God’s help. If a person is not being a Christian then that person has fallen from grace and is lost. In Proverbs 10:16, the righteous are saved and their labour will lead them to life after their physical death. This is an example of works after salvation.

Thanks for the additional info on what you believe.

I have never seen the unsaved trust in the Lord or who have hope in the Lord.

What about the thief on the cross?
He hoped that Jesus would have mercy on him, and Jesus ended up having mercy on him.

I am convinced that I am right about my beliefs concerning the Bible, just as you and deberrie2000 are convinced that you are right. I have hoped that the shock value would provoke him to challenge me on my stand concerning Ephesians 2:8 to 10. He does not, at this point, wish to engage.

"Shock value" does little good when it involves telling lies about the person. The person knows he isn't totally unable to comprehend what he reads, and he knows that he has SOME concept of logic. So when you say stuff about him that he knows to be false, you aren't winning him over to your way of thinking. You are just driving away any chance that you may have had, of being taken seriously.

I may seem to be a bit on the unorthodox side of good manners but as they say, all is fair in love and war.

But it's not true that any behavior, no matter how egregious, is justified when evangelizing the gospel. If the enemy is Satan, do you really want to sink to his level while at the same time claiming to be fighting for Christ?

Christ wouldn't agree, I am fairly sure.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Ephesians 2 in major ways contradicts your idea that salvation needs to be gained by obeying....

If the necessity of obeying God for His grace unto life were my idea--you would be exonerated:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[Phoenix]

Maybe Saxon needs some time to consider how to respond to his claims being refuted. Give him another day.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I am not one that believes in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

I tend to believe in that once a person is saved, you are saved forever, and thats it...case closed...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...

its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...

[Saxon]

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know ***uredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2)

Peter told those people what they should do, and what would happen if they did it. It's in the Bible.

Seeing that the Bible clearly states that salvation is a gift and it is by grace you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a person has to earn a gift that is by grace. It’s in the Bible

Hint: The English term, for, can and is, at times such as Acts 2:38, used to mean because. (See Acts 10:45 to 47)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?