Let's discuss it

[Saxon]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is written to the saved and it is speaking of those that are not saved. The saved have obeyed, but their obedience did not earn salvation. Salvation is a gift, free to the receiver. The saved are the only ones that obey God, the lost obviously don't.

[Saxon]

If God saves those who choose to obey Him, obviously it was God who saved them, but if they hadn't chosen to obey God, He wouldn't have saved them. You could say "Well, then they saved themselves" but that's only indirectly true. If it hadn't been for God, their salvation would have been impossible. And if it hadn't been for their choice to obey Him, they wouldn't have been saved. So it's a simple, obvious truth: There is a clear cause-effect relationship between obeying God and being saved. No one who chooses ****ation gets saved, and no one who chooses salvation gets ****ed.

Show me where it says to obey God to be saved. I have shown where it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. It is believe and be saved, not obey and be save.

Your answer leads me to believe that you do not have any concept of grace, gift or faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You said:
"I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted."
The premise for your belief that it's impossible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, is this: Your belief that the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions.

So you seem to be saying that IF it IS possible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, then the only way that could be possible, would be if the Bible isn't true and free of actual contradictions.

Don’t be foolish, Acts 2:38 does not mention conditions for the remission of sins. It is saying what a person should do if their sins have been remitted. Go back to Ephesians 2:8 and 9 and try to see the fact that salvation is a gift from God. You cannot earn a gift or do works for something that is by grace.

Here's one: Maybe the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions, but you misunderstood what it was saying, and jumped to the incorrect conclusion that it doesn't mention any conditions for having one's sins remitted.

Now you have gone from one verse to the whole Bible not mentioning the one condition of salvation.

How is it possible to misunderstand Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Grace through faith, Gift of God, not of works??? How is it possible to misunderstand John 3:16? Whosoever believeth in him should not perish. Is that too hard a concept??? How is it possible to misunderstand Acts 16:30 and 31? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. Is this some sort of a mystery that is too hard to understand???

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

What about the thief on the cross?
He hoped that Jesus would have mercy on him, and Jesus ended up having mercy on him.

He had expressed a belief in Christ, then he was promised that he would be with Jesus. Get your facts straight.

[Saxon]

The case is not closed on your say so. The case is only closed on the Bible's say so. Show me where the Bible says that once you are saved you are always saved.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Show me where it says to obey God to be saved.

How many verses do you require before you will admit that such verses exist? This from a partial list of the Bible's stated conditions for eternal life/salvation:

1. Must know God and His Son to have eternal life. (John 17:3)
2. Must keep Christ's commandments (to know Him) and therefore you must keep His commandments in order to have eternal life. (1 John 2:3 Matthew 19:17 Heb. 5:9 Matthew 7:21,22)

You must obey the commandment to be baptized in order to have eternal life:

3. Must be born of water and spirit. (John 3:5) And note deberrie's citations showing that in early Christianity, "being born of water" meant water baptism for the remission of sins.


9. Must walk righteously and speak uprightly. (Isaiah 33:14-15)
10. Must turn from all sins, keep all God's statutes, do what is right. (Ezekiel 18:21-22)

12. Must hear Christ's voice and follow Him. John 10:27-28
13. Must seek honor, glory, immortality by patiently continuing in well doing. (Romans 2:7)

21. In order to be perfect, must keep most of the 10 commandments plus give to the poor and follow Jesus. Matthew 19:21

It's not those who only HEAR who will inherit eternal life--it's who both hear AND OBEY. Right there you lose the debate.

I have shown where it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. It is believe and be saved, not obey and be save.

You are wrong. You are COMMANDED to believe, and you are COMMANDED to have faith in Christ. If you refuse to obey those commandments, you cannot and will not be saved. So even the act of believing is an act of obedience.

Your answer leads me to believe that you do not have any concept of grace, gift or faith.

Your words lead me to believe that you do not understand what the Bible teaches.

Don’t be foolish, Acts 2:38 does not mention conditions for the remission of sins. It is saying what a person should do if their sins have been remitted.

False. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Those people had not yet been saved. How many saved people do you know who haven't yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit? How many saved people do you know who haven't yet gotten their sins remitted? It's impossible.

Now you have gone from one verse to the whole Bible not mentioning the one condition of salvation.

I have given you plenty, now.

How is it possible to misunderstand Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Grace through faith, Gift of God, not of works???

You are evidence that it is possible. You are conflating the works of The Law (the Torah) with obeying Christ's commandments to His disciples. They are two vastly different things. Find me a NT verse where Jesus says "Obeying My Commandments is optional." Find me a verse where Jesus says "You don't have to obey My Commandments--you can reject them, and by so doing reject Me, and still get eternal life."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I tend to believe in that once a person is saved, you are saved forever, and thats it...case closed...

That seems to be the position of the faith alone--but a position that is found wanting by the scriptures:

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is written to the saved and it is speaking of those that are not saved.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And those who won't be saved are those who do not obey the gospel of Christ.

And this was the very beginning of the Gospel:

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[Saxon]

How many verses do you require before you will admit that such verses exist? This from a partial list of the Bible's stated conditions for eternal life/salvation:

All that is needed is one; let’s see what you have.

1. Must know God and His Son to have eternal life. (John 17:3)

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This says nothing of obeying God to gain salvation. This is obviously after salvation. The saved know God and Christ, the lost do not know him. If they did then they would be saved.

2. Must keep Christ's commandments (to know Him) and therefore you must keep His commandments in order to have eternal life. (1 John 2:3 Matthew 19:17 Heb. 5:9 Matthew 7:21,22)

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This says nothing of obeying God to gain salvation. This is obviously after salvation. 1John was written to Christians and is stating that the saved know him if the saved keep his commandments. You stay saved by being a Christian, stop being a Christian and you are lost.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This is an event before Christ was crucified. Before Christ was crucified the people indicated their faith in Christ by visibly attempting to live out the law as best they could. This was not to get saved but to show the world or whoever was watching that they believed in the coming Christ and were therefor saved. If we are to believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever then nothing has changed. Our works come after we believe and believing is the only condition for salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The unsaved do not obey him, but the saved do obey him therefor he is the saviour of all that obey. Again, they obey because they are saved, not to get saved. Not of works.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

See all the works that were done by people, it didn’t save any of them.

You must obey the commandment to be baptized in order to have eternal life:

3. Must be born of water and spirit. (John 3:5) And note deberrie's citations showing that in early Christianity, "being born of water" meant water baptism for the remission of sins.

Being born AGAIN is the second birth. The first birth is the natural birth by the womb through water. The second birth is the birth of your spirit when old things p*** away and all thing become new.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus names the two births in verse 6, born of the flesh (first) and born of the Spirit (second). The early commentators were not inspired and they ignored what the Bible clearly teaches, they were in error.

9. Must walk righteously and speak uprightly. (Isaiah 33:14-15)

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Again, the lost do not obey God, only the saved will obey. Obedience is because you are saved, not to get saved. Not of works

[Saxon]

10. Must turn from all sins, keep all God's statutes, do what is right. (Ezekiel 18:21-22)

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

How will the wicked turn from his sins? Only faith in Christ can lead to salvation by God’s grace. It is still by grace through faith and not of works. It doesn’t change.

12. Must hear Christ's voice and follow Him. John 10:27-28

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

It is HIS sheep not those that are not his, in his fold.

13. Must seek honor, glory, immortality by patiently continuing in well doing. (Romans 2:7)

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Again this is a comparison between those that are saved that by continuance will not fall from grace but will find glory and honour and immortality, eternal life after their physical death. Read verses 8 and 9 to see what the unrighteous are to receive.

21. In order to be perfect, must keep most of the 10 commandments plus give to the poor and follow Jesus. Matthew 19:21

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me

Again this is before Christ’s crucifixion and in order to be perfect you had to do ALL the law. No one could do it. Jesus is the only on that fulfilled the law in its entirety. Man’s salvation is not attained by works because the Bible says that it is a gift by grace through faith, not of works.

It's not those who only HEAR who will inherit eternal life--it's who both hear AND OBEY. Right there you lose the debate

.

The only ones that do obey are those that are saved. There is no debate.

You are wrong. You are COMMANDED to believe, and you are COMMANDED to have faith in Christ. If you refuse to obey those commandments, you cannot and will not be saved. So even the act of believing is an act of obedience.

Well look at that. You are now coming around to what the Bible is saying. The next hurtle you need to get over is the fact that it is not your obedience that saved you. It is because God loves you and has declared, before the foundation of the world that he was going to save those that believe and have faith in Christ. God is not obligated to save anyone even if they have faith and believe in Christ. He saves those people because he has decided to do it. You can believe and have all the faith you want but it does no good because it is by the grace of God who had made up his mind long before man came on the scene. What is so hard about not of works???

Your words lead me to believe that you do not understand what the Bible teaches.

That is because you are not paying attention to what the whole Bible is saying and you are relying on you church to teach you. You are going to stand before the creator of all things created and you will be responsible for what you have believed. I prefer to believe what I see in the Bible over what someone tells me is right when I can see that they are saying something different from the Bible.

False. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Those people had not yet been saved. How many saved people do you know who haven't yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit? How many saved people do you know who haven't yet gotten their sins remitted? It's impossible.

Which gift of the Holy Spirit is Peter referring to? The indwelling or the coming upon? They had received the Holy Spirit indwelling long before the day of Pentecost. In Acts 2:38, they were saved already that is why the wanted to know what to do. With salvation you do not get all knowledge. They had the Holy Spirit indwelling them and the gift of the Holy Ghost that Peter was referring to was the promise of the father, (Acts 2:39) the coming upon for power to be effective witness of Christ. Also see Acts 1:4 and 5 to see what the promise of the Father is.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Acts 1:4 And, being ***embled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

You are evidence that it is possible. You are conflating the works of The Law (the Torah) with obeying Christ's commandments to His disciples. They are two vastly different things. Find me a NT verse where Jesus says "Obeying My Commandments is optional." Find me a verse where Jesus says "You don't have to obey My Commandments--you can reject them, and by so doing reject Me, and still get eternal life."

That is a foolish request as obeying his commandments is not optional. Obeying his commandments is for the saved. The lost will not obey or they would be saved and then they would obey. It is still by grace through faith, a gift, not of works

[Saxon]

It is still not of works. None of the baptizing saved anyone. Baptism is for those that are believers, saved.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is written to the saved and it is speaking of those that are not saved. The saved have obeyed, but their obedience did not earn salvation. Salvation is a gift, free to the receiver. The saved are the only ones that obey God, the lost obviously don't.

I have to agree, read what Psalm 14:2-3 says,
"The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."

Hearts turned away from God will not obey Him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

I have to agree, read what Psalm 14:2-3 says,
"The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."

Hearts turned away from God will not obey Him.

Hi Disciple. The question is not whether those whose hearts are turned away from God obey Him--but rather--does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That's what the faith alone refuse to engage--and for good reason: If that is true, IE--God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him---then faith alone theology is false.

Care to engage the Biblical scriptures?

As to your quote--there is a reason that none did good:

Psalm 14:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

That brings us back to obedience.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple. The question is not whether those whose hearts are turned away from God obey Him--but rather--does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That's what the faith alone refuse to engage--and for good reason: If that is true, IE--God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him---then faith alone theology is false.

Care to engage the Biblical scriptures?

As to your quote--there is a reason that none did good:

Psalm 14:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

That brings us back to obedience.

Hi DB,

I think you are missing my point. Of course followers of Jesus must be obedient, but Psalm 14 makes it clear that without mercy and grace all men are corrupt and do not seek God. Corrupt men who do not seek God will not first be obedient. It is acknowledging our need for a Savior and believing that Jesus is willing and able to save us that brings saving grace, which sets us free to obey and serve. The indwelling Holy Spirit is what makes us willing to do those good works that God has prepared for us beforehand. Obedience is not our idea nor our desire that's why we must be born again.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,

I think you are missing my point. Of course followers of Jesus must be obedient, but Psalm 14 makes it clear that without mercy and grace all men are corrupt and do not seek God. Corrupt men who do not seek God will not first be obedient. It is acknowledging our need for a Savior and believing that Jesus is willing and able to save us that brings saving grace, ...

Hi disciple.

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi disciple.

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Those who are born again want to obey His commandments and are able to do so by the Holy Spirit. I guess I have to ask this question, do you believe unsaved men will obey God's commands? Now I'm not referring to the legal constraints placed on men by society, most people will obey the law because they fear the consequences. I'm talking about what Jesus said in John 14:15,"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments". An unsaved man does not love Jesus, the bible tells us the unsaved are enemies of God. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Rom 5:10
Works do not reconcile enemies of God, only Jesus can.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hi disciple.

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Originally Posted by disciple

Those who are born again want to obey His commandments and are able to do so by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Disciple.

And there arises another problem for the faith alone:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple.

And there arises another problem for the faith alone:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hi DB,

What is the first instance of obedience to God a person displays? Is it faith or works?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by disciple

I guess I have to ask this question, do you believe unsaved men will obey God's commands?

They will if they want to be saved. How else can a man be saved, besides obeying God? Do you know of any other way to be saved? Do you know a way to be saved WITHOUT obeying God?

Don't you know what goes on at Christian altar calls?
"If anyone here has a desire to be saved, I'm here to tell you that what you must do is profess, here and now, that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that you want to follow Him! All who want to be saved, come forward and say the Sinner's Prayer, and you will be saved!"

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

That sure doesn't sound like the twisted, "cart before horse" doctrine of "God saves you first, and then you can and will obey Him after"--which is a false doctrine. It should be obvious that it doesn't work that way.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

They will if they want to be saved. How else can a man be saved, besides obeying God? Do you know of any other way to be saved? Do you know a way to be saved WITHOUT obeying God?

Don't you know what goes on at Christian altar calls?
"If anyone here has a desire to be saved, I'm here to tell you that what you must do is profess, here and now, that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that you want to follow Him! All who want to be saved, come forward and say the Sinner's Prayer, and you will be saved!"

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

That sure doesn't sound like the twisted, "cart before horse" doctrine of "God saves you first, and then you can and will obey Him after"--which is a false doctrine. It should be obvious that it doesn't work that way.

Tell me how you obey God with a sinful nature and a heart turned away from Him, without the help of the Holy Spirit.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

They will if they want to be saved. How else can a man be saved, besides obeying God? Do you know of any other way to be saved? Do you know a way to be saved WITHOUT obeying God?

Don't you know what goes on at Christian altar calls?
"If anyone here has a desire to be saved, I'm here to tell you that what you must do is profess, here and now, that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that you want to follow Him! All who want to be saved, come forward and say the Sinner's Prayer, and you will be saved!"

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

That sure doesn't sound like the twisted, "cart before horse" doctrine of "God saves you first, and then you can and will obey Him after"--which is a false doctrine. It should be obvious that it doesn't work that way.

An interesting note about the Athanasian Creed:


"At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,

What is the first instance of obedience to God a person displays? Is it faith or works?

Hi Disciple.

Considering the Bible teaches faith without works is dead--the sequence is rendered moot:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Saxon]

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

What makes you think that the Athanasian Creed is to be used to determine what the Bible says? The statement that you have quoted is total nonsense when compared to the Bible.

It is making it so a person has to know everything before a person can get saved. This is not Bible teaching. Your argument is not even worthy of a response.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by disciple

Tell me how you obey God with a sinful nature and a heart turned away from Him, without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't the Bible say that even the unbelievers, such as the heathens, can obey God to a certain extent?
Maybe the Holy Spirit influences them to a certain extent.
The flaw in your reasoning enters in when you ***ume that only saved people can obey God to any degree at all. You need to understand that it's possible for people who aren't yet saved, to obey God at least a little. You want the scenario to be:
Until God saves a person, it's impossible for that person to obey God at all, and it's impossible for that person to even want to be saved, and to start obeying Him as a result.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Doesn't the Bible say that even the unbelievers, such as the heathens, can obey God to a certain extent?
Maybe the Holy Spirit influences them to a certain extent.
The flaw in your reasoning enters in when you ***ume that only saved people can obey God to any degree at all. You need to understand that it's possible for people who aren't yet saved, to obey God at least a little. You want the scenario to be:
Until God saves a person, it's impossible for that person to obey God at all, and it's impossible for that person to even want to be saved, and to start obeying Him as a result.

Hello Phoenix,

I certainly see the point you are making but the criteria and means of salvation is chosen by God not you or I. God's standard is perfection, right? To say you obey God at least a little is like saying you only sin a little,(For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it), or to say a little truth is not a lie. The bible tells us that the Father draws us and the Holy Spirit convicts us and we are given grace to believe unto salvation, which part of that can we take credit for? Here are some familiar verses, “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace. Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:9-17
OK then, now we know for sure that faith comes by hearing, what do works come by?

[alanmolstad]

as for that idea that unsaved men can search for god and find him......

I will post on that topic next...

[alanmolstad]

The important section starts at around 0:40 of the video where the unsaved are talked about as they seek god and truth on their own...