Let's discuss it

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello Phoenix, I certainly see the point you are making but the criteria and means of salvation is chosen by God not you or I.

I agree: God chose the means and criteria to be this: If you wanna be saved, there are conditions. If salvation were unconditional, then all would be saved. We don't believe that all will be saved, so there must be conditions that some people don't meet because they don't want to be saved that badly.

God's standard is perfection, right?

Right, and all who want to be perfected in Christ, can be perfected in Christ. But it's not an instantaneous thing. Saying "Hallelujah, I believe in Christ as my Savior" won't make you instantly perfect. It's a lifelong process, and everyone who wants to become perfect has to start at the beginning and then stay on the path until they reach the end. At the end of the path is perfection, which results in eternal life.

To say you obey God at least a little is like saying you only sin a little,(For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it), or to say a little truth is not a lie.

It's better to obey some of God's commandments than to disobey all of them. A Christian once told me: You may not be able to become sinless today, but you can sin less today than you did yesterday.

OK then, now we know for sure that faith comes by hearing, what do works come by?

Obviously those who haven't yet heard of Christ, can't be punished for failing to have faith in Him. So faith in Christ becomes possible once people have heard His gospel. And then doing the good works of the gospel become possible once the person has heard the words of Christ. That's just basic logic that anyone should be able to understand.

But it would be a fallacy to say that the billions of people who died without knowing about Christ, died in complete and total rebellion against God. You don't need to know about Christ and His gospel in order to obey the commandment against murdering, stealing, lying, committing adultery, etc.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

What makes you think that the Athanasian Creed is to be used to determine what the Bible says?

Some of it was taken directly from the Biblical text:

Athanasian Creed

...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[alanmolstad]

I think that is why the Athanasian Creed never really caught on with everyone in the church....Only 'some" of it was supported by the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think that is why the Athanasian Creed never really caught on with everyone in the church....Only 'some" of it was supported by the Bible.

This was the part supported by the Bible:

Athanasian Creed
...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

And that is the very part that testifies against faith alone theology.

[Saxon]

Some of it was taken directly from the Biblical text:

And some comes from the ineffective imaginations of ignorant men that only got “some” right when it came directly from the biblical text. The rest is wishful thinking at best.

Athanasian Creed

...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."

This is a corrupt statement. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that salvation comes from believing the Athanasian Creed or any other creed. Paul and Silas clearly stated “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

This is the resurrection of the saved and the lost. The saved are the ones that had done good by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and the lost are the ones that had done evil by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ, the light. (See John 3:19) There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

This was the part supported by the Bible:

Athanasian Creed
...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

And that is the very part that testifies against faith alone theology.

Originally Posted by Saxon

And some comes from the ineffective imaginations of ignorant men that only got “some” right when it came directly from the biblical text. The rest is wishful thinking at best.

What do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

This is a corrupt statement. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that salvation comes from believing the Athanasian Creed or any other creed.

I agree--but how does that annul the testimony of the Savior--found both in the Athanasian Creed--and St John5:28-29?

Paul and Silas clearly stated “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And was this their belief?

Acts 16:32-34---King James Version (KJV)
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

[Saxon]

What do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

If the testimony is contrary to the Bible it is false and not to be relied on. (See Isaiah 8:20)

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I agree--but how does that annul the testimony of the Savior--found both in the Athanasian Creed--and St John5:28-29?

You are taking John 5:28-29 out of context. You are trying to get John 5:29 to be contrary to Ephesians 2:8 and 9. That clearly state that salvation is by grace, a gift of God, and not of works. The Athanasian Creed is only quoting John and not trying to say that it means to work for salvation.

Those that have done good have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and those that have done bad have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. John 5:28-29 does in no way promote works to gain salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And was this their belief?

(Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.)
Acts 16:32-34---King James Version (KJV)
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

It most definitely was their belief. Paul went on to write Ephesians 2:8 and 9, so he was not advocating that the people be baptized to gain salvation, but be baptized because they had salvation from the very second that they had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, just as Paul and Silas had told them in reply to the question, What must I do to be saved?

I added verses 30 and 31 to your quoted scripture to maintain the flow. Notice that the word was preached before baptism. Before there was a baptism, the jailor cleaned Paul and Silas’ wounds, they were in no rush to be baptized because they were already saved because they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. They believed and were saved before they were baptized. There is no promotion of works to gain salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Saxon

If the testimony is contrary to the Bible it is false and not to be relied on. (See Isaiah 8:20)

What do you consider to be false or contrary to the Bible--about Jesus' testimony?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhat do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are taking John 5:28-29 out of context.

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Look at Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The Bible tells us that the gospel is to be believed. That's where it all begins. God acknowledges faith, not works, and gives the Holy Spirit and works follow.
What does it mean to believe? What is he saying? How do you become a Christian? How do you receive this good news? Simply by believing. The word, in the Greek, the verb is pisteuo, to believe, to have faith. The word simply means to be persuaded, to be convinced that something is true and to trust it. Faith is believing.

[Saxon]

What do you consider to be false or contrary to the Bible--about Jesus' testimony?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

There is nothing false or contrary to the Bible about Jesus’ testimony. What is false and contrary to the Bible is your attempt to get saved by works when it is clearly by grace, through faith, a gift and not of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Those that have done good have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and those that have done evil have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. If you are going to quote the Bible to say that it promotes works to gain salvation, you need to be aware of how salvation comes about.

Paul and Silas said to be saved you need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no mention of doing works to gain salvation. Paul or Silas should have corrected each other if what they said was not true. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) John 3:16, as simple and common as it is says that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. You need to tell me why you think these verses are not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Saxon]

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

Yours is the usual claim when the respondent does not know what he or she is talking about.

What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

You do not seem to understand what “out of context” means. John 5:28-29 is not out of context, it is the way you are trying to make it support needing works to gain salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith, a gift of God, not of works.

You should find out what Jesus is referring to before you make a statement using Matthew 16:27 to support the false notion that works are needed to gain salvation. There is no support for that in Matthew 16:27.

Paul and Silas said to be saved you need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no mention of doing works to gain salvation. Paul or Silas should have corrected each other if what they said was not true. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) John 3:16, as simple and common as it is says that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. You need to tell me why you think these verses are not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Look at Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The Bible tells us that the gospel is to be believed. That's where it all begins. God acknowledges faith, not works, and gives the Holy Spirit and works follow.

I believe the Bible presents a problem with that philosophy:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What do you consider to be false or contrary to the Bible--about Jesus' testimony?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Saxon

There is nothing false or contrary to the Bible about Jesus’ testimony. What is false and contrary to the Bible is your attempt to get saved by works when it is clearly by grace, through faith, a gift and not of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

What is your evidence God did not extend His saving grace to them that did good--and obeyed Him?

How does your rationalization somehow cover and cancel out the fact Chrisat testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--and that for His grace unto life--or ****ation?

Those that have done good have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ

Exactly--because obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to faith:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Your approach has the sounding of this story:

John: Dave--my house is for sale.

Dave: How much?

John: 100k--but the roof needs repair.

Dave: Hold on--you stated you had a house for sale--you said nothing about a roof!


Saxon-- works(obedience to Christ) are an integral component to faith in Christ.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Yours is the usual claim when the respondent does not know what he or she is talking about.

You do not seem to understand what “out of context” means. John 5:28-29 is not out of context, it is the way you are trying to make it support needing works to gain salvation.

John5:28-29 does not have anyone gaining salvation outside of those who obeyed Christ:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe the Bible presents a problem with that philosophy:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You are ignoring Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The obedience Acts 5:32 is talking about is hearing the word and believing, which the scripture says God acknowledges by giving the Holy Spirit. This is not some philosophy but scripture, one must have the Holy Spirit to understand and obey. Read 1 Cor. 2:14 in the Amplified version," But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple View Post---Look at Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The Bible tells us that the gospel is to be believed. That's where it all begins. God acknowledges faith, not works, and gives the Holy Spirit and works follow.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe the Bible presents a problem with that philosophy:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Originally Posted by disciple

You are ignoring Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The obedience Acts 5:32 is talking about is hearing the word and believing, which the scripture says God acknowledges by giving the Holy Spirit.

Hi Disciple.

What is your evidence that obeying God is not an integral component to belief in God?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Saxon]

What is your evidence God did not extend His saving grace to them that did good--and obeyed Him?

How does your rationalization somehow cover and cancel out the fact Chrisat testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--and that for His grace unto life--or ****ation?

Show me your scripture that you are referring to.

There is no evidence that Christ did not extend His saving grace to them that did well and obeyed him. You have pointed out this fact many times. My argument is not that it did not happen, but that you are trying to insinuate that this means that you need to do works, such as obey, repent be baptized in order to gain salvation. This is still contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10. If you were to actually believe Ephesians 2:8 to 10 you would not be so eager to do things to gain salvation. Salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith, NOT of works. Works are for the ones that are saved, in Christ Jesus.

We all, the saved and the lost, are going to be judged by our works. These judgements have nothing to do with determining a person’s eternal state, saved or lost as that has been determined before either the judgement of the saved or the lost takes place.

The judgement of the saved is described in 1 Corinthians 3:9 to 15. Pay close attention to 1 Corinthians 3:15, no works are involved with gaining salvation

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[Saxon]

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

John 5:28-29 in the Bible is not out of context, you have used it out of context by trying to make it say that work is required to gain salvation. This is contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10. If you were to actually believe Ephesians 2:8 to 10 you would not be so eager to do things to gain salvation. Salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith, NOT of works. Works are for the ones that are saved, in Christ Jesus.

Your use of Matthew 16:27 is out of context for the same reason, you are trying to make it say that work is required to gain salvation, contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Saxon]

Obeying Christ is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Just believe, no works required.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Obeying Christ is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Just believe, no works required.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Don't the demons do that? Why aren't they saved? Is there something additional that they failed to do, and that's why they aren't saved? Something such as believe AND obey Christ?

[Saxon]

Don't the demons do that? Why aren't they saved? Is there something additional that they failed to do, and that's why they aren't saved? Something such as believe AND obey Christ?

Salvation is by grace through faith, not obedience or any other work. The demons do not have faith.

Ephesians 2:8 Forby grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Salvation is by grace through faith, not obedience or any other work. The demons do not have faith.

But the demons BELIEVE--it says so right in the Bible. And one of you contra-LDS posters said that the ONLY, SOLE requirement for salvation is to believe. You didn't say "have faith." You said "believe."

So again? What keeps demons from being saved, if "believe" is the only requirement for salvation, and the demons believe, as the Bible says they do?

[Saxon]

But the demons BELIEVE--it says so right in the Bible. And one of you contra-LDS posters said that the ONLY, SOLE requirement for salvation is to believe. You didn't say "have faith." You said "believe."

So again? What keeps demons from being saved, if "believe" is the only requirement for salvation, and the demons believe, as the Bible says they do?

You seem to find it convenient to ignore what I have been posting over and over and over. See Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You seem to find it convenient to ignore what I have been posting over and over and over. See Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You seem to find it convenient to ignore the fact that the number of bible verses that teach salvation by faith alone, is exactly the same as the number of verses that teach salvation by works alone.