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  1. #201
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    Humility; is more than just feeling bad about it.
    Repentance; is more than just saying you are sorry
    And seeking Him out is more than just believing He exists....

    Every one of these requires direct action or "work" on a person's part.

    Did you not read the parable I told you to read?

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then you don't believe the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation-- is God's grace?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    No, I don’t believe that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation IS God's grace.
    That is the first instance I have ever heard someone who professes Christianity denying the remission of sins, or the Holy Ghost is God's grace to mankind. IMO--one cannot be Christian, and be in denial of that.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
    Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
    And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
    Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
    And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
    Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” Luke7:41-50
    Is that anything unlike this verse?

    1 Peter 3:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    So--the question remains--is that reference to "faith" in Luke 7 a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Is that anything unlike this verse?

    1 Peter 3:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    So--the question remains--is that reference to "faith" in Luke 7 a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Hi DB,
    No one disagrees with what James is saying, that faith without works is dead. It’s obvious that if one talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk something is amiss. But works play no part in being born again, obedience and true works for God are the result of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Why do I say that? Because unsaved men are naturally enemies of God. They are very opposite to the commands of God. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom 8:7-8
    Men have no desire to submit to God’s authority or do any work for Him, nor can they.

    “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

    The work of lost men is not to please God or a step towards salvation.
    “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.” Col 1:21

    Our works do not give God reason to save us. We are justified and reconciled by His blood and death.
    “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” Rom 5:9-10

    Works are the result of salvation and must accompany real faith.

  5. #205
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    No, I don’t believe that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation IS God's grace. What I believe is that what you have pointed out as God’s grace are two aspects of eternal salvation, remission of sins and the Holy Ghost. Both are received at the moment God bestows eternal salvation upon a person.

    The Bible says that it is by grace that you are saved, (See Ephesians 2:8) it never indicates that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation ARE God's grace.

    Give me a detailed post describing exactly what you believe God’s grace to be. I am sure that I will find it most enlightening.

    Why is it that you never respond with information requested???

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Is that anything unlike this verse?

    1 Peter 3:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    So--the question remains--is that reference to "faith" in Luke 7 a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi DB,

    No one disagrees with what James is saying, that faith without works is dead. It’s obvious that if one talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk something is amiss. But works play no part in being born again,
    Hi Disciple:

    Then that is an admission dead faith saves one, and that is what faith alone preaches--a faith without works for salvation.

    How does that compare with the testimony of the Savior?


    John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

    obedience and true works for God are the result of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
    Again--the faith alone theology runs into some serious flaws in that conclusion--if the testimony of the Biblical text can be believed:


    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Men have no desire to submit to God’s authority or do any work for Him, nor can they.
    Then you believe the testimony of the scriptures is false?

    Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5
    The work of lost men is not to please God or a step towards salvation.[/quote]

    Then you believe these did not take a step toward salvation?

    Acts 2:38-42King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.” Col 1:21

    Our works do not give God reason to save us. We are justified and reconciled by His blood and death.
    And do the scriptures not testify this Blood goes to them that walk in His light?

    1 John 1:7----King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    It’s obvious that if one talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk something is amiss. But works play no part in being born again, obedience and true works for God are the result of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
    Why is it you can not see the blatant contradiction in your statement above???
    According to you, if works truely has nothing to do with our salvation; then works, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD, WHETHER DONE BEFORE OR AFTER, would have nothing to do with our salvation. Which would mean, "if our walk was amiss" it would have nothing to do with whether we were saved or not!

    Ironically, what you are saying is that "good works" would not have any efect on our salvation, only bad works do!???
    Oh, how far man has fallen from the truth...
    Last edited by theway; 04-28-2015 at 05:45 AM.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    P
    Why is it you can not see the blatant contradiction in your statement above???
    According to you, if works truely has nothing to do with our salvation; then works, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD, WHETHER DONE BEFORE OR AFTER, would have nothing to do with our salvation. Which would mean, "if our walk was amiss" it would have nothing to do with whether we were saved or not!

    Ironically, what you are saying is that "good works" would not have any efect on our salvation, only bad works do!???
    Oh, how far man has fallen from the truth...
    It seems you misunderstand. Works or fruit are the proof of salvation. If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    It seems you misunderstand.
    Quit the contrary, it's precisely because I do understand, is why I am able to show all the contradictions in your statements. You seem to be the one who has not thought it through yet.
    For instance let's look at your statements below.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Works or fruit are the proof of salvation.
    Not according to your beliefs.
    Because if you truely believe that works are not a requirement for our salvation. Then works; whether done before a person was saved, or whether those works were good or bad, would not be proof of anything related to salvation.


    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.
    No, he would not be under your theology, that is yet another Faith Alone for salvation paradox.
    For if you believe so, then you would have to draw a line separating who is saved and who is not, and that line would have to be based on a person's works.
    For instance, if I say I am saved and stole a hundred pencils, would I still be saved? What about one pencil?
    What if I used to rape three women a year and mudered three people a year before I was saved, but now that I am saved I have not raped anybody and I have only murdered two people... Is that proof that I am saved?

    The problem is that you decry works for salvation, but then turn around and make works the defining criteria of salvation.... It's nothing but hypocrasy.... I have no idea why you can not see that?
    Last edited by theway; 04-28-2015 at 03:48 PM.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    It seems you misunderstand. Works or fruit are the proof of salvation. If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.
    That still connects works and salvation. If one obtains salvation independent of works--that one cannot redact after salvation and then claim one's salvation is suspect because of the absence of works.

    Salvation and works are connected in the Bible:

    Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Quit the contrary, it's precisely because I do understand, is why I am able to show all the contradictions in your statements. You seem to be the one who has not thought it through yet.
    For instance let's look at your statements below.

    Not according to your beliefs.
    Because if you truely believe that works are not a requirement for our salvation. Then works; whether done before a person was saved, or whether those works were good or bad, would not be proof of anything related to salvation.


    No, he would not be under your theology, that is yet another Faith Alone for salvation paradox.
    For if you believe so, then you would have to draw a line separating who is saved and who is not, and that line would have to be based on a person's works.
    For instance, if I say I am saved and stole a hundred pencils, would I still be saved? What about one pencil?
    What if I used to rape three women a year and mudered three people a year before I was saved, but now that I am saved I have not raped anybody and I have only murdered two people... Is that proof that I am saved?

    The problem is that you decry works for salvation, but then turn around and make works the defining criteria of salvation.... It's nothing but hypocrasy.... I have no idea why you can not see that?
    Hello Way,
    When one is born again he is a new creation in Christ, willing and able by the Holy Spirit to serve and obey God and as the scripture says in Matthew 7:16-20,
    "You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions."
    Before one is born again he is an enemy of God, a bad tree, and will not obey, works have no part in salvation, works are the fruit of salvation. You are complicating something that is simple and clear and I understand why. You must convince yourself that your religion is correct, it is human nature to want to be right. In this case you are very wrong, sincere but wrong. Zealous without correct knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hello Way,
    When one is born again he is a new creation in Christ, willing and able by the Holy Spirit to serve and obey God and as the scripture says in Matthew 7:16-20,
    "You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions."
    Before one is born again he is an enemy of God, a bad tree, and will not obey, works have no part in salvation, works are the fruit of salvation. You are complicating something that is simple and clear and I understand why. You must convince yourself that your religion is correct, it is human nature to want to be right. In this case you are very wrong, sincere but wrong. Zealous without correct knowledge.
    Once again, all you are trying to do is give us a nonsensical argument you "think" supports you. When in fact it argues against you and only shows the flaws in your theory.
    You say that works have nothing to do with salvation, but then tell us the criteria you use to tell whether someone is saved is by their works??? One of these statements is wrong, they can not be true at the same time.
    Next you would want us to believe more illogical and unbiblical nonsense, by saying that man is a complete enemy to God before they are saved and could never do any good works.
    There are many problems with that.
    One, that would mean that man can only be saved against their will and it must be forced on them.
    Two, how can a person have a belief in Christ in order to be saved, and reject him at the same time?
    Third, according to the verse you provided it says that a man can not get grapes from thorn bushes, yet you are trying to tell us that man is a thorn bush from which good grapes will come... You just contradicted your own evidence???
    Four, if you look at your verse again, it never says that the unsaved are bad trees. That part you just made-up;because these verses are about how to tell a false Prophet from a true Prophet.
    I could go on pointing out all the errors in your theories but I haven't that much time in life.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Once again, all you are trying to do is give us a nonsensical argument you "think" supports you. When in fact it argues against you and only shows the flaws in your theory.
    You say that works have nothing to do with salvation, but then tell us the criteria you use to tell whether someone is saved is by their works??? One of these statements is wrong, they can not be true at the same time.
    Next you would want us to believe more illogical and unbiblical nonsense, by saying that man is a complete enemy to God before they are saved and could never do any good works.
    There are many problems with that.
    One, that would mean that man can only be saved against their will and it must be forced on them.
    Two, how can a person have a belief in Christ in order to be saved, and reject him at the same time?
    Third, according to the verse you provided it says that a man can not get grapes from thorn bushes, yet you are trying to tell us that man is a thorn bush from which good grapes will come... You just contradicted your own evidence???
    Four, if you look at your verse again, it never says that the unsaved are bad trees. That part you just made-up;because these verses are about how to tell a false Prophet from a true Prophet.
    I could go on pointing out all the errors in your theories but I haven't that much time in life.
    So you think a false prophet is a saved man? One more time, works do not save, works are the proof of salvation.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    So you think a false prophet is a saved man? One more time, works do not save, works are the proof of salvation.
    You are trying to argue Apples and Oranges... And yes, by your theology a false prophet could be a saved man, and hence the paradox. For instance, if a person gets saved yet decides to turn away from the truth and preach a false gospel, he would still be saved in your theology... Else you are saying that his salvation was determined by his works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    It seems you misunderstand. Works or fruit are the proof of salvation. If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That still connects works and salvation. If one obtains salvation independent of works--that one cannot redact after salvation and then claim one's salvation is suspect because of the absence of works.

    Salvation and works are connected in the Bible:

    Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Bump for Disciple

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    One more time, works do not save, works are the proof of salvation.
    I don't see anyone arguing that works saves--only that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I don't see anyone arguing that works saves--only that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    Hello DB,

    Ok, then who are those that will obey Him. The scriptures tell us, (not my theology but God's word) that before we are born again we are enemies of God(Rom 5:10)
    (Col 1:21) and we do not seek Him(Rom 3:11). Also the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost.(1 cor. 1:18). So who will obey or seek without first receiving unmerited grace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hello DB,

    Ok, then who are those that will obey Him.
    Those that desire eternal life:


    2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    How can one be saved without God? One must obey the doctrine to have God.

    The scriptures tell us, (not my theology but God's word) that before we are born again we are enemies of God(Rom 5:10)
    (Col 1:21) and we do not seek Him(Rom 3:11). Also the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost.(1 cor. 1:18). So who will obey or seek without first receiving unmerited grace?
    All received of God's free gift in His Atonement:

    Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

  19. #219
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    In the end....


    I have seen Mormons over the years post here, and in the end they always come down on the side of a "works salvation"

    regardless of how they try to twist the wordings,,,the net result is the same...they believe that works count.

    They believe that works make you saved.

    They believe that works are more important that even what god you believe in,,,,








    so yes, I believe they are always wrong.

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