One is saved through dead faith?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

In order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.

A functioning faith operates as follows:
You are out in a wilderness and are at the point of starvation and death. Someone finds you and gets you into their home and puts you at a table with food and water that will keep you from death if you eat it. You could have faith that if you eat and drink what has been provided you will not die. If you fail to do the work of eating and drinking your faith is not functioning. Faith without works is dead.

Faith and the functioning work is what is needed for salvation. There is nothing that you do except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Believing is the functioning faith that God requires of you and he, by grace, saves you. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Faith and a functioning work attached to that faith equals faith that is not dead. Dead faith nor works saves anyone.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View PostIn order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.

A functioning faith operates as follows:
You are out in a wilderness and are at the point of starvation and death. Someone finds you and gets you into their home and puts you at a table with food and water that will keep you from death if you eat it. You could have faith that if you eat and drink what has been provided you will not die. If you fail to do the work of eating and drinking your faith is not functioning. Faith without works is dead.

Faith and the functioning work is what is needed for salvation. There is nothing that you do except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Believing is the functioning faith that God requires of you and he, by grace, saves you. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Faith and a functioning work attached to that faith equals faith that is not dead. Dead faith nor works saves anyone.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Bump for the board

[MichaellS]

Bump for the board

BTW, what do you guys mean by “bump” here, I doubt a glossary exist but would be handy.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Only if that “faith” is all there is to receiving that “gift”. But it isn’t, for it is now at an entirely specific point energized to do the “works”.

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12)

Mike.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

BTW, what do you guys mean by “bump” here, I doubt a glossary exist but would be handy.

Hi Michael. "Bump" means a call for attention to something that was not answered.

Only if that “faith” is all there is to receiving that “gift”. But it isn’t, for it is now at an entirely specific point energized to do the “works”.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[INDENT][FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=3][B][I][COLOR="#808080"]“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12)

Were these the ones who received Him--and believe on His name?

Revelation 22:14King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Were these the ones who received Him--and believe on His name?

Revelation 22:14King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Hi dberrie!

As I’m sure you know, they cannot “do his commandments” till they receive his given “power” (Jn1:12), because it is not describing the “command” (Acts17:30), to repent, but gain further privileges.

So yes, they are the ones.

Just as they cannot exert a right to the “tree of life” till they believe on Him. Right there again is that point where the NO-need for works (Eph2:8,9), becomes A-need (Jms2:26) for works, , and they can, energized to “do His commandments”.

Have I followed or responded to your question/point correctly? Has this topic been of some concern here? I ask because I haven’t familiarized myself enough but only to say I have seen a number of instances on the log. So I suspect it has. And if it has I feel this has found itself in a bit of circular treatment.

If so, I would invite you to either link or briefly summarize a couple of the majors going on here for me. Nearly total strangers and I submit a thing like that, can't hardly believe myself. A y/n will do fine.

Mike.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=3]Hi dberrie!

As I’m sure you know, they cannot “do his commandments” till they receive his given “power” (Jn1:12), because it is not describing the “command” (Acts17:30), to repent, but gain further privileges.

So yes, they are the ones.

Just as they cannot exert a right to the “tree of life” till they believe on Him. Right there again is that point where the NO-need for works (Eph2:8,9), becomes A-need (Jms2:26) for works, , and they can, energized to “do His commandments”.

Have I followed or responded to your question/point correctly? Has this topic been of some concern here? I ask because I haven’t familiarized myself enough but only to say I have seen a number of instances on the log. So I suspect it has. And if it has I feel this has found itself in a bit of circular treatment.

If so, I would invite you to either link or briefly summarize a couple of the majors going on here for me. Nearly total strangers and I submit a thing like that, can't hardly believe myself. A y/n will do fine.

Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.

[dberrie2000]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161993]Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.

Bump for anyone

[disciple]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;162303]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.

Bump for anyone

Hi DB,
I do not deny that works are an important part of the Christian life, but works do not merit saving grace, works are the fruit of said grace. Let’s look at a few verses pertaining to faith.
"Now faith is the ***urance (or substance) of things hoped for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Heb 11:1-2
The ”men of old” did not gain approval by works even though their works were evident. It is not just what we do (works) that matters, but how we do it. Do our works express "the ***urance of things hoped for", are they the logical conclusion of trusting the One who prepared those works for us beforehand? Faith and the works that follow depends on what God is like, not on what we are like.
“But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” Heb 11:6
Works do not please God in the sense that theses works will merit grace, nor does God depend on us to do works, not in the least. Works belong in the Christian life but they are the fruit and proof of salvation not a stepping stone. Faith has at least these two components: one is the conviction that there is a great unseen God who exists absolutely and does not depend on us in the least. And the other is the ***urance that this God is a God of love and mercy and offers free and sovereign grace for all who seek him in truth.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,

I do not deny that works are an important part of the Christian life, but works do not merit saving grace, works are the fruit of said grace.

Hi Disciple:

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that do His work, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I believe there are some questions we might want to ask ourselves about this scripture:

1) What is it about repentance and water baptism we don't consider as obedience--and what is there about the remission of sins we don't consider God's salvational grace?

2) Did those who repented and were water baptized--merit the remission of sins?

3) What do you call God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him? Why does the remission of sins not cons***ute God's grace--even if God gives it to those who obey Him?

4)Where do we find God giving His salvational grace, as a personal reception--to anyone other than those who obey Him, IE--


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

[dberrie2000]

Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post ---Hi DB,

Let’s look at a few verses pertaining to faith.

"Now faith is the ***urance (or substance) of things hoped for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Heb 11:1-2

Hi Disciple:

First--when you refer to "faith"--is that a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

All obedience to God is an integral component to the term "faith"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".

The ”men of old” did not gain approval by works even though their works were evident.

I believe the scriptures disagree:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Here is the extension of those blessings:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple View Post ---Hi DB,

Let’s look at a few verses pertaining to faith.

"Now faith is the ***urance (or substance) of things hoped for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Heb 11:1-2

Hi Disciple:

First--when you refer to "faith"--is that a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

All obedience to God is an integral component to the term "faith"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".

The ”men of old” did not gain approval by works even though their works were evident.

I believe the scriptures disagree:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Here is the extension of those blessings:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Bump for anyone

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM. dberrie has a need to oppose salvation by grace through faith, and to preach that Satan is a true and powerful god. dberrie tried to bring the whole forum down with his obsessive posting - and his attempt to turn every single thread into a discussion of the Mormon works program for salvation. Have fun with him. dberrie is the quintessential troll.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Originally Posted by Apologette

[B]dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM.

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Originally Posted by Apologette

[B]dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM.

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

It is a powerful scripture--faith without works is dead. One of the great revelations understand by those within the church is the importance of works. In a world that wants more and more to be given to and less and less to give, understanding that God does expect us and want us to work is crucial to understanding that work is a key to happiness.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

It is a powerful scripture--faith without works is dead. One of the great revelations understand by those within the church is the importance of works. In a world that wants more and more to be given to and less and less to give, understanding that God does expect us and want us to work is crucial to understanding that work is a key to happiness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostQuestion for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post

[B]dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM.

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is re****ed by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons ***ociated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is re****ed by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons ***ociated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

However telling the truth and noting honest observations are NOT ad hominem, are they?

Your 'arguments' lack substance and you cannot deal with the Truth. (Observations, not attacks at all)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

However telling the truth and noting honest observations are NOT ad hominem, are they?

You said:

I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

If you see this comment as an "honest observation" and not an attack--well, that explains a lot.

But I have learned in this forum that when a poster cannot defend their position, they begin to attack the messenger instead.

Here is what happened to Christ when the same type of thing happened and how the Pharisees justified themselves:

Jhn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

The Pharisees also believed the Christ's teachings would doom the "chosen" people to hell so it would be better to crucify him.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

True faith is NEVER dead; it is ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY works.

But it is the faith, not the works that saves you from GOD'S perspective.

In James 2 it is talking about 'if a man SAYS he has faith. . .' how will you (a mere human) RECOGNIZE it?

Doesn't it bother you that there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE to substantiate the fantasies of joe smith's writings? Isn't it 'convenient' that the golden plates aren't there, NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that nephites existed, etc? It would bother ME a lot, if I were you. . .

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

True faith is NEVER dead; it is ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY works.

But it is the faith, not the works that saves you from GOD'S perspective.

In James 2 it is talking about 'if a man SAYS he has faith. . .' how will you (a mere human) RECOGNIZE it?

Doesn't it bother you that there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE to substantiate the fantasies of joe smith's writings? Isn't it 'convenient' that the golden plates aren't there, NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that nephites existed, etc? It would bother ME a lot, if I were you. . .

Must end again with a criticism. Yes--faith is always followed by works which is why God can judge a man by his works.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So, once again---why does God give to them who keepeth his works "power over nations." What do you think is meant by this?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

True faith is NEVER dead; it is ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY works.

But it is the faith, not the works that saves you from GOD'S perspective.

In James 2 it is talking about 'if a man SAYS he has faith. . .' how will you (a mere human) RECOGNIZE it?

Doesn't it bother you that there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE to substantiate the fantasies of joe smith's writings? Isn't it 'convenient' that the golden plates aren't there, NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that nephites existed, etc? It would bother ME a lot, if I were you. . .

Must end again with a criticism. Yes--faith is always followed by works which is why God can judge a man by his works.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So, once again---why does God give to them who keepeth his works "power over nations." What do you think is meant by this?

[Christian]

big posted:

Must end again with a criticism. Yes--faith is always followed by works which is why God can judge a man by his works.

If you bothered to READ the James p***age, you might learn that it is NOT GOD, but MAN who judges a man by his works. The p***age has nothing to do with how GOD judges whether your faith is real or not. . .HE KNOWS YOUR HEART better than you do.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So, once again---why does God give to them who keepeth his works "power over nations." What do you think is meant by this?

Perhaps you should start reading the p***age at verse 18 and read through verse 29. . .You might learn the CONTEXT of the p***age. Jesus tells John to write of the church at Thyatira for following Jezebel and who teaches all sorts of BAD things. To those who do NOT believe her false doctrines, they will do good.

Do you believe verse 27? WHO do you think holds the rod of iron? Is it really a rod made of the metal iron, or is it a figure of speech that means 'strictly'?

CONTEXT is important, big. Instead of 'grabbing for 'prooftexts', you should read the WHOLE P***AGE and GET YOUR DOCTRINE FROM THE TEXT instead of trying to SHOVE YOUR DOCTRINE INTO THE TEXT.

You'd learn more from God.