One is saved through dead faith?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Christian

If you bothered to READ the James p***age, you might learn that it is NOT GOD, but MAN who judges a man by his works. The p***age has nothing to do with how GOD judges whether your faith is real or not. . .HE KNOWS YOUR HEART better than you do.[/COLOR]

I wasn't referring to James, I was referring to revelations.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Perhaps you should start reading the p***age at verse 18 and read through verse 29. . .You might learn the CONTEXT of the p***age. Jesus tells John to write of the church at Thyatira for following Jezebel and who teaches all sorts of BAD things. To those who do NOT believe her false doctrines, they will do good.

And those that do good "unto the end" (which means until their death) will be given "power over nations"

What "nations" will those be?

Do you believe verse 27? WHO do you think holds the rod of iron? Is it really a rod made of the metal iron, or is it a figure of speech that means 'strictly'?

Keep reading--because it says " even as I received of my Father."--so this group, that overcomes to the end who shall rule with an rod of iron even as Christ has---how do you interpret this?

CONTEXT is important, big. Instead of 'grabbing for 'prooftexts', you should read the WHOLE P***AGE and GET YOUR DOCTRINE FROM THE TEXT instead of trying to SHOVE YOUR DOCTRINE INTO THE TEXT.
[/COLOR]

Oh, trust me I have. So--what does it mean to you? You have this group of people who did good until the end that are given quite the promise. What does it mean to you?

You'd learn more from God.

I agree---not from you. I believe you will not be able to answer what this means, even in context.

[teenapenny]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is a powerful scripture--faith without works is dead. One of the great revelations understand by those within the church is the importance of works. In a world that wants more and more to be given to and less and less to give, understanding that God does expect us and want us to work is crucial to understanding that work is a key to happiness.

If we truly have faith in Jesus, we will live as he wants us to.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by teenapenny

If we truly have faith in Jesus, we will live as he wants us to.

....which means, among other things, that we will treat other people the way He wants us to.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostQuestion for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Originally Posted by Christian

True faith is NEVER dead;

So--is "true faith" a faith with works--or a faith without works?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by teenapenny

If we truly have faith in Jesus, we will live as he wants us to.

I don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[teenapenny]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

If you have true faith, there will be works. There is no such thing as faith without works.

[teenapenny]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

If you have true faith, there will be works. There is no such thing as faith without works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Originally Posted by teenapenny

If you have true faith, there will be works. There is no such thing as faith without works.

I'm not sure James would have taken the time to address an imaginary point:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if there is no such thing as faith without works--then why do the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works--referred to as "faith alone--sola fide"? :IE

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

[teenapenny]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm not sure James would have taken the time to address an imaginary point:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if there is no such thing as faith without works--then why do the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works--referred to as "faith alone--sola fide"? :IE

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

Yes, Faith without works is dead, because if you truly have faith there will be works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI'm not sure James would have taken the time to address an imaginary point:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if there is no such thing as faith without works--then why do the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works--referred to as "faith alone--sola fide"? :IE

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

Originally Posted by teenapenny

Yes, Faith without works is dead, because if you truly have faith there will be works.

Thanks for that reply.

But again--that begs the question, if what you state is true:

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

[teenapenny]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Thanks for that reply.

But again--that begs the question, if what you state is true:

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

You just do not understand what they are saying. Works alone will not get there.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThanks for that reply.

But again--that begs the question, if what you state is true:

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

Originally Posted by teenapenny

You just do not understand what they are saying.

That's a common retort--but my question is--what is it about faith alone(sola fide)theology that is not being understood?

Sola fide--From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

Works alone will not get there.

No one is arguing works alone--the point centers in why the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Christian]

joe smith is dead. That makes HIS religion 'dead faith' doesn't it?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

joe smith is dead. That makes HIS religion 'dead faith' doesn't it?

Not anymore than it makes it dead faith since His first century NT apostles died.

John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Not anymore than it makes it dead faith since His first century NT apostles died.

John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

You haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

NOBODY in the supposed first vision clearing claimed to be God.
NOBODY in the supposed first vision clearing claimed to be Jesus.
One time joe smith said they were angels.
Other times not.

SEVERAL DIFFERING 'first vision' claims by smith contradict there being any god there.

So joey smith's religion remains dead, and the p***age you gave does not apply to him.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

NOBODY in the supposed first vision clearing claimed to be God.

Similarly, NOBODY at the supposed baptism of Jesus claimed to be God. The account says merely that a voice came from the sky saying "This is my beloved Son."
Kinda like Joseph Smith's account that said the same thing.

And at the supposed stoning of Stephen, NOBODY in his vision claimed to be God.

So what you have done here, is accused the Bible of lying, or you have accused every Christian of being wrong because they believe that it WAS God who spoke from heaven at Jesus' baptism, and it WAS God and Jesus who Stephen saw above him before he died....even though in both cases "NOBODY CLAIMED TO BE GOD."

Maybe there is no rule in the Bible that says "If the being in a theophany doesn't claim to be God, then you should sneer at anyone who believes it was God."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]You haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.

6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.

7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.

9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.

11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[Christian]

berrie posted:

You haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

D&C 110

<SNIP>

STILL NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Just joe writing his own false fiction, PRETENDING it is from God.

Just because joe smith SAYS he was sent by Jesus does NOT MAKE IT SO.

You STILL haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

All you have shown is joe and his fictional writings.

[Christian]

julie posted:

You said:

I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

If you see this comment as an "honest observation" and not an attack--well, that explains a lot.

He made a joke. I considered it to BE a joke. His bad hermeneutics ARE pathetic. If you don't like the TRUTH, I am sorry for you.

But I have learned in this forum that when a poster cannot defend their position, they begin to attack the messenger instead.

You do seem to 'sling that tool around' a lot, don't you?

Here is what happened to Christ when the same type of thing happened and how the Pharisees justified themselves:

Jhn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

The Pharisees also believed the Christ's teachings would doom the "chosen" people to hell so it would be better to crucify him.

When did your mormon religion begin to teach THAT? Or is it 'your own thing?'

God's CHOSEN PEOPLE will not go to Hell. WHOM GOD CHOSE, HE SAVED THROUGH FAITH. Sorry if you don't like that. It is what the Bible teaches, and what I believe.

But you believe WHAT? That Christ's teachings will 'doom God's chosen people to hell?'

Awwwww. I don't believe that. The pharisees never said that either. I think you made that one up ON YOUR OWN.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

STILL NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Just joe writing his own false fiction, PRETENDING it is from God.

I suppose there are many who make the same argument about the Bible.

But when the Lord acts among men--He leaves a record of the heavenly visitations--with witnesses. That is what the Biblical record is--and what D&c 110 shows:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Christian--the LDS church has numerous such heavenly visitations to display to mankind, just as the Biblical NT authors did. That is the pattern the Lord uses.

Perhaps you could show those kinds of visitations in your church history. The LDS can.

[Christian]

You should know, berrie. You should know. . .

Just answer for yourself.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

STILL NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Just joe writing his own false fiction, PRETENDING it is from God.

I suppose there are many who make the same argument about the Bible.

But when the Lord acts among men--He leaves a record of the heavenly visitations--with witnesses. That is what the Biblical record is--and what D&c 110 shows:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Christian--the LDS church has numerous such heavenly visitations to display to mankind, just as the Biblical NT authors did. That is the pattern the Lord uses.

Perhaps you could show those kinds of visitations in your church history. The LDS can.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Christian

You should know, berrie. You should know. . .

Just answer for yourself.

Yes, Christian, I know. That is the reason I'm LDS.

So--do you have any heavenly visitations of your church you would like to share with us?

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

[Christian]

More junk offered by smith and his cronies, yet NO EVIDENCE that Smith had anything to do with GOD at all. LOTS of junk from smith and those he conned, but NO REAL EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING.

No remnants of any person, place or events in the bom. NO evidence of his 'prophesies' coming true (the temple lot STILL belongs to a DIFFERENT group of mormons than your own). NOTHING to cause us to believe that brigham young's group was chosen by GOD to do anything special.

NOTHING AT ALL, but your own DEAD FAITH IN JOE SMITH.

Doesn't that bother you at all, that NONE OF IT is based in the REAL WORLD? It all depends on the huckster conman, joe smith? There is no REALITY connected to it?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I suppose there are many who make the same argument about the Bible.

But when the Lord acts among men--He leaves a record of the heavenly visitations--with witnesses. That is what the Biblical record is--and what D&c 110 shows:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Christian--the LDS church has numerous such heavenly visitations to display to mankind, just as the Biblical NT authors did. That is the pattern the Lord uses.

Perhaps you could show those kinds of visitations in your church history. The LDS can.

Yes, Christian, I know. That is the reason I'm LDS.

So--do you have any heavenly visitations of your church you would like to share with us?

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Originally Posted by Christian

More junk offered by smith and his cronies, yet NO EVIDENCE that Smith had anything to do with GOD at all.

Since when is a written record of heavenly manifestations with witnesses not considered evidence? If what you claim is true--then that renders the Biblical text unreliable evidence.

[Christian]

Julie posted:

I wasn't referring to James, I was referring to revelations.

How many books of RevelationS are IN your Bible? Mine has only one book of REVELATION (singular, the revelation to John. . .)

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their work


Let's see now. . .our names Are ALREADY IN the Book of Life. Do you think we CHRISTIANS are DEAD in heaven? OF COURSE the UNSAVED are dead, and THEY are indeed judged according to their works

You love to read things into the text don't you?

Your works are sinful. IF you are honest, you know YOU SIN DAILY.

IS that what you want to/expect to be judged by?

I'll go with Jesus. HIS POSITION IS:

Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.
NKJV


Paul told us this is Jesus' position. Do you deny Paul?