Salvation

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;




Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

God died for all men that they might have life:

Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What about Paul, did saving grace come to Paul before he was obedient or only after?
“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace.” Galatians 1:15
Ponder the conversion of Paul, the sovereignty of Christ, and what Paul’s sins have to do with your salvation. Paul said that God “set me apart before I was born,” and then on the Damascus road “called me by his grace”. This means that between Paul’s birth and his call on the Damascus road he was an already-chosen but not-yet-called instrument of God. Acts 9:15; 22:14 This means that Paul was beating and imprisoning and murdering Christians as a God-chosen, soon-to-be-made-Christian missionary.
“As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” Acts 22:6–7
There was no denying or escaping it. God had chosen him for this before he was born. And now he would take him. The word of Christ was sovereign. There was no negotiating. “Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.” Acts 22:10
Damascus was not Paul’s final, free will yielding to Christ after decades of futile divine effort to save him. God had a time for choosing him (before he was born) and a time for calling him (on the Damascus road). Paul yielded when God called.
Therefore, the sins that God permitted between Paul’s birth and his calling were part of the plan, since God could have done Damascus sooner. Do we have any idea what the plan for those sins might have been? Yes. They were permitted for you and me — for all who fear that they might have sinned themselves out of grace. Here’s the way Paul relates his sins to you.
“Formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy . . . for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.”
1 Timothy 1:13, 16

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

WE are not the ones who chose, GOD did it. WE are not the ones who 'decided' to DO stuff; GOD led us to do what we did.
NOT to 'get saved,' but BECAUSE GOD GAVE US THE FAITH THAT SAVED US, and because of that faith, we are water baptized and obey what Christ wants us to do.

You mormons are confused. You seem to think you must 'help your god' save you.

So then are you trying to say that God only saves the ones He wants to save?

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

What about Paul, did saving grace come to Paul before he was obedient or only after?

After!

You might not of noticed because you cut your quoting of Acts 22 a little short.

Paul had to be obedient in following the instructions given him, be baptized so that his sins could be forgiven, and call upon the name of The Lord.

Now unless you are still trying to say that Paul was saved without having obtained forgiveness of his sins then I think it is obvious that he was not yet saved.

[Saxon]

You were quoting Christian, not me (Saxon). I agree that Christians will be judged In Accordance With (IAW) what we do with the gifts we are given. 1 Corinthians 3:10 to 15 also confirms this.

Consider 1 Corinthians 3:15, this also confirms that works have nothing to do with salvation. All the works are burned up but yet the person is still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

A couple of points here, Saxon:

1) Please notice they were "his own servants" to begin with--and later, because of their failure to magnify their gifts--were cast into outer darkness. Where does that leave once-saved-always-saved?

2) The Lord called those who magnified their gifts--"faithful" servants--connecting faith and works:

Again I am in agreement with you. I fail to see where Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is compatible with the Bible.

Knowing your position on works and salvation, I must repeat that the works t are a result of faith; faith without works is dead. You cannot do anything for salvation except obey God by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Is this an example of those who "help your god save you"?

----King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

There is no way to help God save you so the answer is no. The text is written to a saved person. The instructions are to continue in sound doctrine so you will not be led astray and become lost again.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Knowing your position on works and salvation, I must repeat that the works t are a result of faith; faith without works is dead. You cannot do anything for salvation except obey God by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But therein is your paradox... You stated that forgiveness of sins and salvation happen at the same time. So unless you believe that a person can be saved without Faith, then you must believe that Faith, forgiveness, and salvation happen at the same time. And if you believe that then you must believe that a person can be saved with a dead faith, unless you believe that works happens at the same time as well. If everything happens at the same time... Then that means that works (including baptism) either done before salvation, OR AFTER SALVATION, is therefore meaningless.

Originally Posted by Saxon

There is no way to help God save you so the answer is no. The text is written to a saved person. The instructions are to continue in sound doctrine so you will not be led astray and become lost again.

Become lost how? Do you believe that one can lose their salvation?

[Saxon]

But therein is your paradox... You stated that forgiveness of sins and salvation happen at the same time. So unless you believe that a person can be saved without Faith, then you must believe that Faith, forgiveness, and salvation happen at the same time. And if you believe that then you must believe that a person can be saved with a dead faith, unless you believe that works happens at the same time as well. If everything happens at the same time... Then that means that works (including baptism) either done before salvation, OR AFTER SALVATION, is therefore meaningless.

You too read without paying attention to what I have claimed to believe. I do not claim that a person can be saved without faith. Ephesians 2:8 states it quite clearly that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a required part of salvation. Faith forgiveness and salvation do happen at the same time.

You are very persistent in twisting the scriptures to make it seem to say what you want. Did Paul write Ephesians 2:8 saying that it is through dead faith that the grace of God moves? It is a definite NO. You, however, wish to make it seem that Ephesians 2:8 is referring to a dead faith. There is nothing in the text to even make a child think that Paul is referring to a dead faith. You need to put some honest thought into your postings. You are dealing with the Word of God and it isn’t a game.

All the works that a Christian does has its purpose and meaning and that too is not to be trifled with. Whatever we do in this life will be accounted for weather good or evil so it is best to deal with this with a strong sense of respect for the word that you are discussing. What you believe is you privilege and I do respect that you believe what you believe weather I agree or not. But if you want to carry on with a conversation with me I would suggest that you pay attention to what I say so you don’t ask ridicules questions or make obvious unfounded statements regarding what I “have to believe” because you can’t keep in mind what I have already said.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Become lost how? Do you believe that one can lose their salvation?

I do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I have yet to see any scripture in the Bible that holds any support for that supposed doctrine.

[Christian]

dberrie posted:
What is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

Rom 9:19-24
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
NKJV

God made some of us for honor, others for dishonor. He did not just 'allow' us to be one or the other, or just say "I guess that one will do so-and-so anyway, so I might as well. . .

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

CHRISTIANS obey Jesus' commands. Mormons obey the manmade commands of joe smith & company instead.

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

And HOW is that calculated? Oh yes, FAITH is counted as righteousness to us CHRISTIANS, SIN is no longer counted against us.

Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rewards for works, not the free gift of eternal life. Rewards are wages, not salvation. The mormon religion doesn't seem to understand that.

God died for all men that they might have life:

Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So you thnk anti-Christians such as the mormons will be saved? Are you claiming to be a UNIVERSALIST now, pretending that this p***age says that Jesus lied when He said
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Sorry berry, but when quoting scripture you must do so IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WHOLE BIBLE.

And if you are one of those badly mistaught mormons, you can't do that.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I agree with you, dberrie. The Bible verses on the subject seem fairly clear to me: If you want to be saved, there are steps you must take first, starting with having faith, and then repenting of sins, and then being baptized, which results in the remission of the sins you had committed, and then you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and then you keep taking additional steps on the path that eventually leads to eternal life if you stay on the path.

So according to YOU YOU decide which path to take, YOU decide to have faith, YOU decide to repent, YOU decide you should be baptized. . .THEN GOD CAN FORGIVE YOUR SINS?

Did I get that right . . .from YOU?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--What is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9-King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

God died for all men that they might have life:

Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Originally Posted by disciple

What about Paul, did saving grace come to Paul before he was obedient or only after?

Both. The Atonement was for all men--and allowed all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and the Resurrection. Christ conquered death and hell for all men--as an automatic consequence due to the Fall. Free gift to all men.

But the Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--it only allowed for sins to be remitted--through repentance and water baptism:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yes--Paul received of God's salvational grace after he obeyed:

Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace.” Galatians 1:15
Ponder the conversion of Paul, the sovereignty of Christ, and what Paul’s sins have to do with your salvation. Paul said that God “set me apart before I was born,” and then on the Damascus road “called me by his grace”. This means that between Paul’s birth and his call on the Damascus road he was an already-chosen but not-yet-called instrument of God. Acts 9:15; 22:14 This means that Paul was beating and imprisoning and murdering Christians as a God-chosen, soon-to-be-made-Christian missionary.

How does that negate the fact the scriptures have Paul receiving of God's salvational grace through his obedience to God--or that the scriptures show God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You were quoting Christian, not me (Saxon). I agree that Christians will be judged In Accordance With (IAW) what we do with the gifts we are given. 1 Corinthians 3:10 to 15 also confirms this.

Consider 1 Corinthians 3:15, this also confirms that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Hi Saxon.

Care to explain how all will be judged according to their works--AFTER death--and that for life or ****ation--and works play no part in salvation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

All the works are burned up but yet the person is still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Which means he will be saved through the resurrection of all men, as to the spirit--but not unto eternal life. As Paul stated, if we follow that story:

1 Corinthians 5:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:13---King James Version (KJV)
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Saxon--Paul was not saying that fornicator would receive eternal life--but that his spirit would be saved--as all spirits will, through the resurrection. But not unto eternal life. Paul emphasized all men will be judged according to works--and listed the works that will condemn mankind:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You too read without paying attention to what I have claimed to believe. I do not claim that a person can be saved without faith. Ephesians 2:8 states it quite clearly that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a required part of salvation.

Is that a faith with--or without--works?

James 2:26King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhat is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Christian

And HOW is that calculated? Oh yes, FAITH is counted as righteousness to us CHRISTIANS,

But that just connects faith and works together:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You too read without paying attention to what I have claimed to believe. I do not claim that a person can be saved without faith. Ephesians 2:8 states it quite clearly that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a required part of salvation. Faith forgiveness and salvation do happen at the same time.

Once again, there is the contradiction, If you believe Faith, forgiveness and salvation happen at the same time, and you believe that works are a requirement of salvation... Then the works required for salvation would have had to have happened at the same time as well... NOT AFTER.
This idea then that we must do works after we are saved is a contradiction to a true faith alone believer.
Even this idea that God is the one who gives you all your Faith, and then forgiveness and salvation, in which happens at the same time, is a modern invention made to try and cover the paradoxical holes in the Faith alone theory.

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are very persistent in twisting the scriptures to make it seem to say what you want.

Now that would be quite an accomplishment since I never posted any scripture... I have only shown by simply logic how your version of Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory. The fact that it is also unbiblical.... I'll leave to another day.

Originally Posted by Saxon

I do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I have yet to see any scripture in the Bible that holds any support for that supposed doctrine.

But that's just it... Faith alone does not work without OSAS, because if a person can lose their faith based on something they did or didn't do, then one's salvation is dependent on works. Whether those works happen before, at the same time, or after, is irrelevant.

This is why TULIP was invented. The Faith alone lie will not work by itself; like any lie they had to invent other lies in order to try and fix the first lie. The problem is that when you take all the tenets of TULIP together it produces a doctrine which closer resembles Satan's game plan than God's. However, if you take away one aspect of TULIP, the whole house of cards comes down and the contradictions and paradoxes become evident.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

So according to YOU YOU decide which path to take, YOU decide to have faith, YOU decide to repent, YOU decide you should be baptized. . .THEN GOD CAN FORGIVE YOUR SINS?

That's not just according to me, it's according to the Bible.
"Choose this day whom you will serve..." etc.

Did I get that right . . .from YOU?

Yes, I think you summarized my position accurately. Do you have any questions about it?

[Christian]

phoenix posed:

Originally Posted by Christian
So according to YOU YOU decide which path to take, YOU decide to have faith, YOU decide to repent, YOU decide you should be baptized. . .THEN GOD CAN FORGIVE YOUR SINS? [/quote]

That's not just according to me, it's according to the Bible.
"Choose this day whom you will serve..." etc.

ONLY if you RIP your partial sentences or phrases OUT OF CONTEXT.

The Bible ALSO says:

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

YOU cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are FOOLISHNESS TO YOU, NOR CAN YOU KNOW THEM. . .

Spiritually dead folks (the UNSAVED such as YOU?) cannot 'decide' to do those things since the dead folks cannot understand or receive the things of God. . .UNLESS HE GIVES THEM TO YOU. Apparently he has not done that yet.

Yes, I think you summarized my position accurately. Do you have any questions about it?

None at all. You are spiritually dead, but you THINK you are alive and well; yes I do understand your position. I was once the same way, but JESUS SAVED ME. I pray He will someday save you as well.

[Saxon]

Is that a faith with--or without--works?

James 2:26King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That depends if you are looking for works that will complement faith or if you are looking for works that supposedly compliment salvation.

Faith that has no complementary works is dead. There is no works to complement salvation. (See Ephesians 2:9) Again I will ask you, what part of "NOT of works" do you not understand????

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Saxon]

Once again, there is the contradiction, If you believe Faith, forgiveness and salvation happen at the same time, and you believe that works are a requirement of salvation... Then the works required for salvation would have had to have happened at the same time as well... NOT AFTER.

I do not believe that works are required for salvation!! What part of "NOT of works" do you not understand???? (See Ephesians 2:9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This idea then that we must do works after we are saved is a contradiction to a true faith alone believer.
Even this idea that God is the one who gives you all your Faith, and then forgiveness and salvation, in which happens at the same time, is a modern invention made to try and cover the paradoxical holes in the Faith alone theory.

Seeing that you have no concept of what “faith alone” means I fail to see how you can see a contradiction when there is none. Faith alone, not of works is as old as the scriptures of the Bible. Ephesians 2:10 tells us that we, the saved, being in context with verses 8 and 9, are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Created in Christ Jesus is at the moment of salvation and unto good works means that the one that has become a Christian is to do good works. You are the one that is in error because you do not believe the Bible.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now that would be quite an accomplishment since I never posted any scripture... I have only shown by simply logic how your version of Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory. The fact that it is also unbiblical.... I'll leave to another day.

Your comments on scripture are just as twisting as if you actually quoted scripture. If you don’t quote scripture, how can you prove Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory? The Bible is the only truth of God, the very word of God.

But that's just it... Faith alone does not work without OSAS, because if a person can lose their faith based on something they did or didn't do, then one's salvation is dependent on works. Whether those works happen before, at the same time, or after, is irrelevant.

This is why TULIP was invented. The Faith alone lie will not work by itself; like any lie they had to invent other lies in order to try and fix the first lie. The problem is that when you take all the tenets of TULIP together it produces a doctrine which closer resembles Satan's game plan than God's. However, if you take away one aspect of TULIP, the whole house of cards comes down and the contradictions and paradoxes become evident.

Again, you have no concept of what “faith alone” means. Faith alone works extremely well without OSAS. TULIP, as far as I am concerned, is a man-made theory that has no part in the Bible what so ever.

Your concept of what the Bible teaches is ridiculous from my point of view.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I do not believe that works are required for salvation!! What part of "NOT of works" do you not understand???? (See Ephesians 2:9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.





Seeing that you have no concept of what “faith alone” means I fail to see how you can see a contradiction when there is none. Faith alone, not of works is as old as the scriptures of the Bible. Ephesians 2:10 tells us that we, the saved, being in context with verses 8 and 9, are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Created in Christ Jesus is at the moment of salvation and unto good works means that the one that has become a Christian is to do good works. You are the one that is in error because you do not believe the Bible.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.





Your comments on scripture are just as twisting as if you actually quoted scripture. If you don’t quote scripture, how can you prove Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory? The Bible is the only truth of God, the very word of God.





Again, you have no concept of what “faith alone” means. Faith alone works extremely well without OSAS. TULIP, as far as I am concerned, is a man-made theory that has no part in the Bible what so ever.

Your concept of what the Bible teaches is ridiculous from my point of view.

Mormons have no works.
their faith is alone...and so it is dead.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

Care to explain how all will be judged according to their works--AFTER death--and that for life or ****ation--and works play no part in salvation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The Bible speaks of two resurrection, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of ****ation. (See John 5:28-29) these are the resurrection of the saved and the lost. They take place at different times.

The resurrection of life or the “first resurrection” is the resurrection of all the saved. The saved have no sins counted to them and the works that they will be judged for are the good works that the saved are to do in the life before the resurrection. The judgment is to see what “sort” it is, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. The gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble represent what the believer’s at***ude was when the works were done. The gold, silver, precious stones represent a good at***ude that reflected the glory of God and the wood, hay, stubble represent a bad at***ude that the believer was seeking glory for himself. 1 Corinthians 3:15 confirms that works has nothing to do with salvation as it states that if any man’s works are burned he will still be saved.

The resurrection of ****ation, or the “second resurrection” is the resurrection of the lost. These people are to be judged for sin and sinful works. (See Revelation 20:11 to 13)

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Which means he will be saved through the resurrection of all men, as to the spirit--but not unto eternal life. As Paul stated, if we follow that story:

1 Corinthians 5:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:13---King James Version (KJV)
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Your quote of scripture is dividing the saved from the lost. Either you are saved and have a part in the first resurrection or you are lost and have part of the second resurrection. There is no other forms of more or lesser salvation. There is no support for you interpretation of 1 Corinthians 5:5. You are in error.

Saxon--Paul was not saying that fornicator would receive eternal life--but that his spirit would be saved--as all spirits will, through the resurrection. But not unto eternal life. Paul emphasized all men will be judged according to works--and listed the works that will condemn mankind:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Show me from the Bible where all spirits will, through the resurrection, be saved. If a person does not receive eternal life then all that person has to look to is the lake of fire. There are no other options.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

ONLY if you RIP your partial sentences or phrases OUT OF CONTEXT.

What kind of "context" do you plan to invent, that would make the exhortation to choose, a NON-choice?

The Bible ALSO says:[/COLOR]
1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

So? And? How does your cherry-picked proof text support your false belief that God isn't able to give people the ability to make choices?

YOU cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are FOOLISHNESS TO YOU, NOR CAN YOU KNOW THEM. . .

Seems like you are the one mocking the truth about your God-given ability to choose, and calling that truth foolishness.

You are spiritually dead, but you THINK you are alive and well;

I think you are spiritually dead, to the point that you have chosen to not even realize and appreciate the great gift that God has given you: the ability to make choices, either good or bad ones, which will ultimately determine where you will end up. Such an obvious, sensible, rational concept is foolishness to you because you have chosen to remain spiritually dead. You don't want to wake up and smell the roses.

I pray that you will decide to choose to accept correct doctrines.

[Christian]

phoenix posted:

What kind of "context" do you plan to invent, that would make the exhortation to choose, a NON-choice?
So? And? How does your cherry-picked proof text support your false belief that God isn't able to give people the ability to make choices?
Seems like you are the one mocking the truth about your God-given ability to choose, and calling that truth foolishness.

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God; HE CHOSE WHO WOULD BE HIS OWN PEOPLE BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLDS.

Eph 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth — in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
NKJV


You do not on your own have the ability to 'choose' to come to God or NOT to 'choose' to come to God. HE chose. Before the beginning of the world.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

Jesus said NO ONE CAN come to Him unless it was granted to him by His Father. You are NOT 'free' to do so on your own.

I think you are spiritually dead, to the point that you have chosen to not even realize and appreciate the great gift that God has given you: the ability to make choices, either good or bad ones, which will ultimately determine where you will end up.

You are free to believe in the easter bunny too. But you ARE NOT FREE to have faith in Jesus Christ UNLESS it has been granted to you by the Father.

Since Jesus said NOBODY can come to the Father EXCEPT through HimSuch an obvious, sensible, rational concept is foolishness to you because you have chosen to remain spiritually dead. You don't want to wake up and smell the roses.

I received Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord over 42 years ago. YOUR irrational and ignorant 'judgement' of me is merely irrational and ignorant. You may believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and 'free will' to choose God or NOT to choose God, but Jesus has said otherwise (see the p***ages above).

You should study your Bible and learn of God.


I pray that you will decide to choose to accept correct doctrines.

If you think you can find any 'incorrect' doctrines I believe, or any 'correct' doctrines I don't believe, then SHOW US SCRIPTURE that says so.

Personally, I don't believe you can.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;

If God is unable, or unwilling, to allow some people to choose Him, then you're accusing Jesus of lying when He said that it's God's will that ALL people come to Him. Plus, you're accusing the Bible of lying where it says that Jesus atoned for the sins of all people. You're saying that He only died for those who He chose to die for--those who He chose to "allow" to follow Him.
Which really means that you're saying that Jesus doesn't love all people, since if He loved us all, He would have died for us all and would have allowed ALL of us the ability to choose Him.

Perhaps the idea that Jesus loves all of us, and therefore died for all of us, and therefore gives all of us the ability to choose Him or to reject Him--perhaps such ideas are foolishness to you. Maybe you are too spiritually dead to realize that these ideas aren't foolishness at all.

[alanmolstad]

How it works is like this:

The blood of Christ is sufficient to save every person on earth.

The blood of Christ is efficient in saving they who believe.

[alanmolstad]

you see you can look at this issue from 2different points of view.
God's point of view
Our point of view.

Both points of view are correct, but they are in conflict too.



Its just like the situation with the Pro-Calvin and Anti-Calvin question.

Both the Pro and Anti, Calvin positions have good support in the bible, both are correct, yet both fall short too.




God simply decided before the world began that I would be with him in glory....
Not just guys like me...not just people that one day happen to believe, but me by name.
Me as an individual.

Nothing was left in doubt
There was a 100% ***urance that I would be with the Lord in Glory.
Nothing was left to chance.


and yet at the same time.....



I was totally lost until I believed.
I had to both hear the calling of God, and respond.
I had to confess my sins to be forgiven.
Before I confessed I was lost and doomed.





This is what Walter martin talked about in the recording I have posted on this forum many times.
There is a clear contradiction in the text...and Walter talks about how to resolve that contradiction.....

ready to hear how to do it?


You cant.

There is no way to resolve it.

[alanmolstad]

So what we have then are two totally different factors to deal with as we address this question of salvation.

We have human free will.
We have God's sovereignty.

Now people can go nuts attempting to figure out how one can work with the other, and the truth is that its an unanswerable question as to the "how?"


What I have done in the past on this forum is to show people how I teach this is all kinda like the situation of being a p***inger on a large boat.
As a p***enger you have the limited freedom (free will) that is granted you by the ship's Skipper (The Lord).

With your freedoms you can walk around the deck of the boat to the left or to the right.
it does not matter...

Your freedom to choose for yourself does not at all change the overriding authority of the Skipper to control the true direction of the ship.

So you have what seems like a conflict,(your freedom and the Skipper's authority) working with each other, without getting in each other's way.
And in a small way this is kinda like the way our Human free will is able to work without problems with God's authority.

From God's POV, what clearly seems like an unanswerable conflict is somehow not a problem with God.

But if we look at the issue from our point of view its always going to be a conflict.