Salvation

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So what we have then are two totally different factors to deal with as we address this question of salvation.

We have human free will.
We have God's sovereignty.

Now people can go nuts attempting to figure out how one can work with the other, and the truth is that its an unanswerable question as to the "how?"


What I have done in the past on this forum is to show people how I teach this is all kinda like the situation of being a p***inger on a large boat.
As a p***enger you have the limited freedom (free will) that is granted you by the ship's Skipper (The Lord).

With your freedoms you can walk around the deck of the boat to the left or to the right.
it does not matter...

Your freedom to choose for yourself does not at all change the overriding authority of the Skipper to control the true direction of the ship.

So you have what seems like a conflict,(your freedom and the Skipper's authority) working with each other, without getting in each other's way.
And in a small way this is kinda like the way our Human free will is able to work without problems with God's authority.

And as always I have shown how your ship ****ogy is nonsensical.
First, you never stated what the destination of the ship was??? If the destination is Heaven, then you would have everybody headed to the same place???? In your ****ogy and belief there would have to be two ships... Each with a different Skipper heading in opposite directions. Each Skipper would be telling its p***engers the same thing however, "You have freedom to sin all you want or do whatever you want because the ship's course will not change and you will end up at your destination regardless."
Second, if there is only one ship then the destination does not matter, nor would it matter if the ship just simply sat still. In essence, if I do not have the freedom to jump ship, then it is nothing more than a prison barge with the same instructions given to all inmates; that I can sin as much as I want on board the ship, but my destination once I get off the ship will not change. In other words, salvation will be forced on some against their will, and ****ation will come to others because God willed it so without any rhyme or reason to it.
Third.... Well there's no need for a third right now, because the first two observations makes your scenario or ****ogy so ridiculous there's no need to beat a dead dog which couldn't hunt anyway even when it was alive.

Now I know you are going to read this even though you said you won't, and yet not respond. But that will not matter to me, because this way you can not back-track and try to weasel out once again, yet your ridiculous ****ogy stands as a testament to the nonsense which is Faith alone and your understanding of predestination which goes with that belief.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

From God's POV, what clearly seems like an unanswerable conflict is somehow not a problem with God.

But if we look at the issue from our point of view its always going to be a conflict.

God is not a God of confusion. Sometimes things seem to conflict and make no sense, because in reality they do conflict and are hence nonsensical.
Simply saying "it is a mystery" does not solve your paradoxes.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;

Could you explain for us what prevents anyone from choosing God?

HE CHOSE WHO WOULD BE HIS OWN PEOPLE BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLDS.

Obviously--since God died for all men--then all men can choose God.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[alanmolstad]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161705]Could you explain for us what prevents anyone from choosing

They believe Joe smith's lies

Even when the bible warned people what Satan will do...people still fall for the lie.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They believe Joe smith's lies

Why on earth would anyone knowingly choose a lie?
You are not making any sense yet again.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As a p***enger you have the limited freedom (free will) that is granted you by the ship's Skipper (The Lord).With your freedoms you can walk around the deck of the boat to the left or to the right.
it does not matter...Your freedom to choose for yourself does not at all change the overriding authority of the Skipper to control the true direction of the ship. So you have what seems like a conflict,(your freedom and the Skipper's authority) working with each other, without getting in each other's way...

So you believe that we're all on a ship that God is sailing to hell, and there's nothing any of us can do to go any other place because God won't allow it?

[alanmolstad]

You mix your point of view.

Try again

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You mix your point of view.

Try again

He saw the same problem I noted. The fault in not in everybody's perception or point of view; the problem is that your "Prison Ship to Hell" story is badly thought out, and only confuses the issue more.

Try again, only this time with a theology which actually works.

[alanmolstad]

you see you can look at this issue from 2different points of view.
God's point of view
Our point of view.

Both points of view are correct, but they are in conflict too.



Its just like the situation with the Pro-Calvin and Anti-Calvin question.

Both the Pro and Anti, Calvin positions have good support in the bible, both are correct, yet both fall short too.




God simply decided before the world began that I would be with him in glory....
Not just guys like me...not just people that one day happen to believe, but me by name.
Me as an individual.

Nothing was left in doubt
There was a 100% ***urance that I would be with the Lord in Glory.
Nothing was left to chance.


and yet at the same time.....



I was totally lost until I believed.
I had to both hear the calling of God, and respond.
I had to confess my sins to be forgiven.
Before I confessed I was lost and doomed.





This is what Walter martin talked about in the recording I have posted on this forum many times.
There is a clear contradiction in the text...and Walter talks about how to resolve that contradiction.....

ready to hear how to do it?


You cant.

There is no way to resolve it.








Therefore...
Lets look at the question of salvation from man's point of view.
Is there anything stopping a person from repenting and putting their faith in God....no.

From our point of view the future is not set in stone, anything can happen.
The door is always open...God calls out to all men...
From our point of view we are not destined to any fate, but must hear and answer the call, or die in our sins.

So from our point of view we are not destine to heaven or hell.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian View PostGod does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain for us what prevents anyone from choosing God?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They believe Joe smith's ...

But that is still a choice.

Again--what prevents people from choosing God?

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Christ died for all men:

1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you see you can look at this issue from 2different points of view.
God's point of view
Our point of view.

Both points of view are correct, but they are in conflict too.

Its just like the situation with the Pro-Calvin and Anti-Calvin question.

Both the Pro and Anti, Calvin positions have good support in the bible, both are correct, yet both fall short too.

God simply decided before the world began that I would be with him in glory....
Not just guys like me...not just people that one day happen to believe, but me by name.
Me as an individual.

Nothing was left in doubt
There was a 100% ***urance that I would be with the Lord in Glory.
Nothing was left to chance.

What is certain is the truthfulness of Christ's testimony--that all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Anyone who preaches there are no acts of obedience to God required for His grace unto life is teaching the greatest lie satan ever pawned upon mankind:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is still a choice.

Again--what prevents people from choosing God?

oh they choose.....
God's gift to man of our free will allows us to make decisions...and people that join CULTS have made this mistake all on their own....only themselves to blame for it.

what stops them from believing in the true God of the Bible is that they have made the bad decision to believe in a false god rather than the true God.
That stopped them and turned their walk down the darkened path to destruction and death.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;

Seems you actually need to read the verse that was referenced before making such a false statement...
Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

In any case, you don't even have a horse in this race. You have already stated that nothing i do will change whether God will save me or not. If you actually believe that, then the fact that I am Mormon and do not believe your opinions to be Biblical, from your viewpoint will not be the deciding factor to whether God will save me or not.
In fact, to a true Faith Alone believer there can be no criteria, even to God, in deciding who will be saved. Because either it will make God a respecter of persons and unjust, or a lier.

That is just one of the many contradictions and paradoxes of Faith Alone.

[Christian]

tway posted:
Seems you actually need to read the verse that was referenced before making such a false statement...
Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Perhaps you didn't READ the p***age I quoted:
John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
NASU

BTW, Joshua was already one of God's chosen people when he said that, wasn't he? And IF it had been granted to a person, he could choose God, couldn't he? And if it was NOT GRANTED to him, he could/would NOT have chosen to serve God, would he?

No conflict here at all.

In any case, you don't even have a horse in this race. You have already stated that nothing i do will change whether God will save me or not. If you actually believe that, then the fact that I am Mormon and do not believe your opinions to be Biblical, from your viewpoint will not be the deciding factor to whether God will save me or not.

I would not presume to know whether God has chosen you or not. HE CHOSE US CHRISTIANS before the worlds began. WE did not choose Him. HE CHOSE US, and led us to FAITH IN HIM.

Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
NASU

So you may ooze sarcasm all you wish, but you cannot change God. HE chose to give life to spiritually dead people.

Those who are dead CANNOT chose God.

So WHO CARES whether you believe ME or not. Whether you believe GOD is what will lead you to Him. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM, you will go to Hell. HE will either lead you to Himself. . .or not.

It is up to God, not to you.

Rom 9:19-24
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
NKJV

WHO do you think is the Potter here? WHO do you think is the clay? WHO are made for HONOR? WHO are made for dishoner?

And do the dishonorable pots 'FREELY CHOOSE' to have been made that way?

In fact, to a true Faith Alone believer there can be no criteria, even to God, in deciding who will be saved. Because either it will make God a respecter of persons and unjust, or a lier.

There you go SPECULATING WILDLY again.

That is just one of the many contradictions and paradoxes of Faith Alone.

Just because you don't understand the SCRIPTURES about faith in Jesus Christ ALONE saving us does not make the scriptures 'contradictory' or 'paradoxical' either. All it does is show your own ignorance about the SCRIPTURES.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

oh they choose.....
God's gift to man of our free will allows us to make decisions...and people that join CULTS have made this mistake all on their own....only themselves to blame for it.

what stops them from believing in the true God of the Bible is that they have made the bad decision to believe in a false god rather than the true God.
That stopped them and turned their walk down the darkened path to destruction and death.

How does your take on what you believe about the LDS somehow mean people can't choose God?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How does your take on what you believe about the LDS somehow mean people can't choose God?

Its like what Jesus said, "Depart from me, I never knew you"



thats the answer when people ask me, "What happens to Mormons when they die?"....

Well there you go.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

Perhaps you didn't READ the p***age I quoted:
John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I did read it... However because I had the extra advantage of reading the entire chapter, I was not fooled into believing that this verse says anything about predestination as you believe it, but in context it says the exact opposite of what you want it to say.
If you read more than just the cookie-cut verse which you think supports you, you will see that there were a lot of people being "drawn" to Christ. Yet Christ perceived that most of them were only there for the free dinner and a show (loafs and fishes, and the miracles). Christ then pointed out that they were drawn for their own reasons, but the true believers will be the ones drawn by the teaching of His Father, as even Christ was not here to do his own will, but the will of His Father. Therefore they must be drawn by the Father.
And how are are they drawn by The Father? Well, verse 45 tells us: "....'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me".
Note that the verse says that it is by the individuals choice to learn from the spirit and not by signs, these are the ones which the Father will draw to Christ. And this choice is open to "ANYONE".

Originally Posted by Christian

NASU

BTW, Joshua was already one of God's chosen people when he said that, wasn't he? And IF it had been granted to a person, he could choose God, couldn't he? And if it was NOT GRANTED to him, he could/would NOT have chosen to serve God, would he?

No conflict here at all.

LOL.... not so much of a conflict, as it is straight out silly nonsense.
You are saying that the only ones who can make a choice, are the ones who are not free to choose???

Originally Posted by Christian

I would not presume to know whether God has chosen you or not.

Then why do you run around claiming that I or anybody else needs to be saved? For all you know I and everyone else could already be saved. And what's more, all of your ranting and all a person's sinning or beliefs, will not change that. In other words, I don't have to believe in Christ to be saved because I am already saved. You simply shot your own argument in the foot here.

Originally Posted by Christian

So WHO CARES whether you believe ME or not. Whether you believe GOD is what will lead you to Him. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM, you will go to Hell. HE will either lead you to Himself. . .or not.

I can't understand why you are not able to see the contradiction within this short statement of yours???
You stated that it is impossible for the spiritually dead to know or believe in Christ, yet then you say that unless I do believe and know Him that I will be going to Hell....
This is what is called a paradox... Faith Alone theology are full of them.

Originally Posted by Christian

Just because you don't understand the SCRIPTURES about faith in Jesus Christ ALONE saving us does not make the scriptures 'contradictory' or 'paradoxical' either. All it does is show your own ignorance about the SCRIPTURES.

Then help me out!
Seeing as though you claim to be enlightened, then this question should be easy...

What criteria does God use to decide who will be saved and who will not?

[Saxon]

They don't know it is a lie. It is called deception.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

They don't know it is a lie. It is called deception.

I once was helping a mother and father deal with a child that had been sucked in the the world of the CULTS (JW)

As I was teaching the parents the different teachings of the CULT they turned to me and asked if perhaps the members and leadership of the different CULTS might actually know that they teach error?

They asked this question because many of the non-Christian CULTS like the Mormons and JWs teach such silly and foolish ideas that it seems hard for Christians to believe that the people in the CULT cant see the CULT for what it is?

"Cant they see its all a lie?

"Deep down they must know its all just made up by men like Russel or Smith, right?"

But I told the parents that as far as I know, members of a CULT are completely and fully deceived.
They dont have even a hint they they understand all that they believe is in error.
They are blinded....blinded by their faith in a false Christ.

They have great faith, but their faith is in their believing in the false Christ promoted by the CULT.

This is also why the members of a CULT like the JWs or Mormons have a "dead faith"
For Christ said there was but one "work" that God is looking for, and that work is to believe in his Son.
Members of a CULT do not believe in the true Jesus.
Therefore they lack the work that Christ was talking about that is key.

Mormons have no works so their faith is "dead"

For the Bible says that "Faith without works is Dead!"


Mormons might have great faith, but its a dead faith.

[Saxon]

Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
NASU

Look at what you have quoted to prove that you were chosen. From what I can gather from what I have read from you, it seems that you think that you were chosen personally to be saved before the foundation of the world. This could not be farther from the truth. What God actually chose In Accordance With (IAW) your quote is those that would be “in Christ” and “us in him”. He didn't say that you, personally, would be saved, but those that would be in Christ. No one is in Christ until they are saved in time.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

For the Bible says that "Faith without works is Dead!"

Then why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

Let us go to the video tape!



In the above video,use your computer's mouse and drag and click to get to the 1:28:00 point.
(This is very near the end of the video)

Have a listen....
It took me a while to track down this recording, and it also took a while to find the part that I had heard before on it so as to be able to point you to the relevant part.


I will be glad to write to you after on the whole "problem" that some in the CULTS have when they hear Christians like myself and Walter Martin teach we are "Saved by Grace alone, though faith"

The "problem" is that when people in CULTS hear us preach that message from the Lord, they get it messed-up and for some reason only seem to hear, "Saved by faith alone"







Now what I was saying in post #68 above is that Mormons, (and the JWs too for that matter) have a "dead faith" because while they have a huge faith in their teachings, they lack any works to show that they faith is not a moot point.

The Lord says that thee work of the Lord is to believe in His Son.

The Mormons lack this one key work, as they believe in a false Jesus invented by their leadership.
Lacking this single key work, they have nothing to show for their faith....so their faith is dead.

This Mormon dead faith means that they are still in their sins,
For the bible teaches that faith without works is dead...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The "problem" is that when people in CULTS hear us preach that message from the Lord, they get it messed-up and for some reason only seem to hear, "Saved by faith alone"

Could it be because the faith alone have a post and pillar sola fide(faith alone) doctrine?

Because they preach one is saved independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

1 Peter 4:17-18---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could it be because the faith alone

I think what it is , is that when I say, "Saved by Grace alone, though faith", what you hear is "Saved by Faith alone no works"


you want me to say that so much that you may actually hear that...

[alanmolstad]

and if this is true...then this does point out to us Christians the one thing we may have suspected for a while..."People in CULTS are crazy"


They hear things that no one says.
They believe things now found in the Bible.
They hear truths and distrust them while they hear lies and believe then without question...


people in CULTS are crazy....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think what it is , is that when I say, "Saved by Grace alone, though faith", what you hear is "Saved by Faith alone no works"

you want me to say that so much that you may actually hear that...

That the faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works has nothing to do with what you say. It's a fact regardless of what you think, say, or hear.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.