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Thread: Because or for?

  1. #76
    alanmolstad
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    The question that a Mormon cant seem to dare to answer , is dealing with someting Walter martin says at the :30 second point of the video.

    If you are just new to this conversation, please have a look at the video near the :30 second part and if you would like to know what the Question is that so troubles a Mormon, just send me a private message

    I will be happy to talk to you about what it is...

    (I will be posting the question here, but later when I have more free time)

  2. #77
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post




    The question that a Mormon cant seem to dare to answer , is dealing with someting Walter martin says at the :30 second point of the video.

    If you are just new to this conversation, please have a look at the video near the :30 second part and if you would like to know what the Question is that so troubles a Mormon, just send me a private message

    I will be happy to talk to you about what it is...

    (I will be posting the question here, but later when I have more free time)
    bump..........

  3. #78
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Actually I believe that you go on and on and say a lot of things.....well, you say a lot of things EXCEPT for saying the word you hear Walter Martin say when he tells us how we are saved...
    Alan--you still have not addressed how you are relating what Walter Martin states--with the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. I'm not arguing what you believe Walter Martin stated in the video--only that, in no way, touches upon the fact Walter Martin held the faith alone theology.

  4. #79
    alanmolstad
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    Oh you misunderstand...I have no intention of going to another point in my posts until .......we get to the bottom of what Walter Martin says salvation is not by _____ only.

    If on the chance someone does not know what Im pointing to, then I think I should post the video again, along with the question about what is heard on the video that has yet to be answered....

  5. #80
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    There is this other recording of Walter addressing this very say issue.
    This recording is very old, it goes back to when Walter was still making a name for himself in the ministry outreach to the CULTS.

    I will even show you where to drag the computer mouse too so you can hear word for word what im going to be quoting , so you can make sure Im being honest and faithful to Walter's words.

    Now look at 1:28:00
    Its very near the ending of this video.

    Notice that the JW that Walter is debating asks if we are saved By "Faith and works?"
    Walter says "NO!"

    Then notice the JW says "You are saved by Faith?...Just plain old faith?. Just say you believe?
    Walter answers "NO! You are saved by Grace!"





    ....its getting to the point where Im going to move on to other topics.

    Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
    If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

    Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!





    So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....


    He says "NO!"

  6. #81
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
    If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

    Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!

    So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....

    He says "NO!"
    How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
    If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

    Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!





    So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....


    He says "NO!"
    Once again, this simply shows the contradictory words of Walter Martin.

  8. #83
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.
    see -
    http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...972#post161972

    attention to post number #23

  9. #84
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Again--what do you find in post #23 or the video that might indicate Walter Martin was not of the faith alone theology?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

  10. #85
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--what do you find in post #23 ]
    what do I find?.....






    I find... that rather than answering a question, some people run away, try to change the topic, bring up other concerns desperately , and do ANYTHING they can to put the hounds off the scent.

    I find... that the fact that Walter Martin clearly states his views does not matter to some people that need him to be thought of in a way that must agree with what they "want".


    I find... that I am not surprised by this in the least.




    But in the end,

    I find that Walter Martin's wealth of wisdom, his wealth of teachings, his wealth of insightful recordings, and his wealth of ministry is a true treasure for us all to draw upon.
    For he is and his Lord are the real reason any, and , ALL of us are here.








    I also find,

    I find it interesting that you would post at the end of your comment this - "James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"
    when at the end of the recording we hear Walter Martin talk about the two different types of "justification"

    We learn that there is not just a justification by faith alone but also that there is a justification by works as well.

    I have went over this same matter in my posts many, many times.
    I have shown over and over that there are two different types of justification talked about in the Bible.
    Both types are correct and both types are true.....yet both are different and are aimed at different ideas.
    The recording of Walter martin deals with this whole topic in a lot better way that I could here, yet here I have answered this issue as best as I think it needed.

    Please refer to the recording where Walter talks about the justification by works as compared to the justification by faith , if you have any more questions...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-07-2015 at 08:28 AM.

  11. #86
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--what do you find in post #23 or the video that might indicate Walter Martin was not of the faith alone theology?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    what do I find?.....

    I find... that rather than answering a question, some people run away, try to change the topic, bring up other concerns desperately , and do ANYTHING they can to put the hounds off the scent.

    I find... that the fact that Walter Martin clearly states his views does not matter to some people that need him to be thought of in a way that must agree with what they "want".


    I find... that I am not surprised by this in the least.

    But in the end,

    I find that Walter Martin's wealth of wisdom, his wealth of teachings, his wealth of insightful recordings, and his wealth of ministry is a true treasure for us all to draw upon.
    For he is and his Lord are the real reason any, and , ALL of us are here.

    I also find,

    I find it interesting that you would post at the end of your comment this - "James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"
    when at the end of the recording we hear Walter Martin talk about the two different types of "justification"

    We learn that there is not just a justification by faith alone but also that there is a justification by works as well.

    I have went over this same matter in my posts many, many times.
    I have shown over and over that there are two different types of justification talked about in the Bible.
    Both types are correct and both types are true.....yet both are different and are aimed at different ideas.
    The recording of Walter martin deals with this whole topic in a lot better way that I could here, yet here I have answered this issue as best as I think it needed.

    Please refer to the recording where Walter talks about the justification by works as compared to the justification by faith , if you have any more questions...
    Alan--I don't find the first thing in your reply about how any of your material addresses the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. Nothing. Walter Martin believed just what faith alone adherents believe--one is saved by God's grace through a faith without works:

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  12. #87
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Alan--I don't find the first thing in your reply about how any of your material addresses the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. Nothing. Walter Martin believed just what faith alone adherents believe--one is saved by God's grace through a faith without works:

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    again....We are saved by Grace though faith and not "by" works.....


    Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...
    But we are not saved by works.

    We are just not saved by works thats all....

  13. #88
    alanmolstad
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    as for the fact that the word "for" can mean the same thing as the word "because"?.....it's very true.




    "Please put your car inside the shop for its raining"

    "Please put your car inside the shop because it's raining"



    The words "For" and "Because" can at times be interchanged.





    Also, in the sentence "Please put your car inside the shop for/because it's raining" we have to always keep in mind that the idea of putting the car inside has no effect on the rain.
    The rain is a fact,,,it's a done deal...nothing you do with the car will change anything about the rain.

    But rather the idea of moving the car is in "RESPONSE" to the fact that it is raining.

    The car does not change the weather......LOL

  14. #89
    TrueBlue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    as for the fact that the word "for" can mean the same thing as the word "because"?.....it's very true.




    "Please put your car inside the shop for its raining"

    "Please put your car inside the shop because it's raining"



    The words "For" and "Because" can at times be interchanged.





    Also, in the sentence "Please put your car inside the shop for/because it's raining" we have to always keep in mind that the idea of putting the car inside has no effect on the rain.
    The rain is a fact,,,it's a done deal...nothing you do with the car will change anything about the rain.

    But rather the idea of moving the car is in "RESPONSE" to the fact that it is raining.

    The car does not change the weather......LOL
    Why should anybody acknowledge your posts when you completely ignore facts. The fact is εἰς (Matt. 26:28 AGNT) in the greek is never ever ever used as because. There is around 1750 instances were eis is used. In every instance it's forward looking. Meaning that something done to achieve something else. There are many greek words that english translators use the word "for" to express their meaning.

    For example, εἰς (Matt. 26:28 AGNT) is used. They specifically used εἰς because if any other form of for, such as because, is used it would destroy Christianity at it's core.

    28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for(εἰς) forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:28 NAU)
    Matthew 26:28 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου τῆς διαθήκης τὸ περὶ πολλῶν ἐκχυννόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. (Matt. 26:28 AGNT)

    Notice how there isnt a greek word used for the first two "for" used in the verse.

    38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for(εἰς) the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 NAU)

    πρὸς is used for "because" in the greek. What would Mat. 26:28 look like if it was because?

    28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many because(πρὸς) forgiveness of sins.

    That defeats the whole purpose of His sacrifice. If we already had forgiveness of sins, then what in the world is He doing this for?

  15. #90
    alanmolstad
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    just replace the words and see if the sentence works?....(hint- it does...LOL )

  16. #91
    alanmolstad
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    so when does a person get saved?

    The answer is that you are saved when you believe...

    No works too?....nope

    Dont have to do anything?....nope

    Dont have to do something at all....nope...

    Just believe?,,,,,yes

    It's that simple?

    You just believe and you are saved and forgiven of all your sins?.....yes


    so you dont have to be baptized?....nope, just consider the thief on the cross...totally saved, yet never baptized.
    There is another story of people hearing the word of God and believing and speaking in tongues, yet not yet baptized,,,


    So how does the Bible say we are saved?....We are saved by GRACE though FAITH, and not by works!






    What roll is baptism then?....It's a work that is a part of the Justification by Works that is talked about in the Bible.


    Why is the Justification By Works important to the church?....because we cant see into each other's heart, we can only judge what we see on the outsides.....we can only judge the works of people....that why works are always with our Faith.


    This is why the bible says at times that they who believe and are baptized are saved....or...they who believe and speak something are saved...for saying something or doing something are just normal works that are flowing from a believers faith. ..

    But speaking any words do not save nor taking a bath or shower does not save


    We are saved only by grace working through our faith....not by any works at all

    Not by any water regardless of the amount...not by any words no mater how well spoken...

    For works and words are all matters that flow out of the hidden heart...they confirm our salvation.
    But God sees into the hidden heart.and that is why we are saved by grace through the faith that only God sees
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-18-2017 at 05:36 AM.

  17. #92
    alanmolstad
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    But God sees the heart.

    God knows all things, and he knows your heart before you ever walked down into the water...thus if you are not saved before you entered the water dont expect to be saved with you come out, for the water is not magic...going under the water does not make you believe...its not magic water...LOL


    But is your heart is ready and you believe, then you are saved before even one drop of water hits your head.

  18. #93
    alanmolstad
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    Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,

  19. #94
    alanmolstad
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    that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

  20. #95
    alanmolstad
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    Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …

  21. #96
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...
    Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

    Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Protestant Christianity, as well as some other denominations, from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement, as well as the Methodist Churches, which affirm that following regeneration, good works are ordinarily necessary for salvation.[1][2]

    The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

  22. #97
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

    In the Bible there are two different types of "Justification" listed.

    One deals with our faith
    The other deals with our acts.


    The first one that is dealing with our faith is something that only God can judge, for only he can see into a person true heart.
    You cant see into my heart...I cant see into your heart.
    Only God can see into our inner hearts, only he knows the real truth of the heart.

    So this is why then we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.
    For the Lord sees the heart, the lord alone sees our faith....





    But what can we see?
    We can only see the acts people do.


    You can see what I do, and I can see what you do.

    I can look at what a person does, I can hear what they say, and from this I can form a little private judgement as to what I "think" their faith is.


    But I cant know for sure.

    I can only guess at what your heart is,,,,I can only guess at your private faith.
    Just as you can only guess at mine.


    This is why we are only "Justified" by works before men's eyes.





    So the justification by works is before men, yet the Justification by faith is before God.





    and this gets us right back to (here it comes)...The fact that we are saved only by Grace though Faith and not by works.


    Let me know if this is still unclear to you, for its important for me that you come here and receive the answers to your questions.

  23. #98
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

    Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Protestant Christianity, as well as some other denominations, from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement, as well as the Methodist Churches, which affirm that following regeneration, good works are ordinarily necessary for salvation.[1][2]

    The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    In the Bible there are two different types of "Justification" listed. One deals with our faith
    The other deals with our acts.
    Regardless of how many different types of Justification you believe the Bible deals with--in faith alone theology--it excludes all works in obtaining salvation.

    So--what works are you referring to here?

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

  24. #99
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Regardless of how many different types of Justification you believe the Bible deals with--in faith alone theology--it excludes all works in obtaining salvation.

    So--what works are you referring to here?
    when asked what are the works that God requires?...Jesus said that we have but one required work.....to believe!





    So faith is the only work that counts....but its not the only work in our lives.
    Let us hope that when you believe your life is filled with all manner of works, so that the unbeliever will look at the things that you will one day do, and judge your faith by them.



    But let us also hope that you know the difference between a faith that is never without works, and religion that teaches salvation by works.


    For believing in salvation via works is a dead end....it leads only to the world of the CULTS.

    all CULTS teach a form of works-salvation, that keep their people from straying.



    But I want you to be free....

  25. #100
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    just replace the words and see if the sentence works?....(hint- it does...LOL )
    it isnt that it just works well as I claim, its that it actually rarely does not work perfectly all the time!!!!


    The real trick is to try to find a verse where you cant exchange the words back and forth!
    Go out and try......try to find a verse that does not work just as well with either word being used....its not easy.


    Thats how closely the meaning of the words are to each other...

    You know this is true if every place you see the word used you can see how the other word changes nothing.



    For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    Now use the word "Because" and see if the verse changes at all?......(hint it don't)




    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life

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