Because or for?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Would this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Acts 10: 46 uses “for” where “because” could be used. Salvation comes before any works (See Ephesians 2:9)

Could anyone here produce a translation that has "because" used in the Acts2:38 verse? IMO--this is another example of the faith alone attempt to alter or deny what the scriptures bear testimony to--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him. It defies faith alone theology--so an alteration is demanded--change it to because--instead of "for":


New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

NET Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon said to them, “Return to God and be immersed everyone of you, in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua, for release from sin, so that you may receive the gift of The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized each one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWould this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post Acts 10: 46 uses “for” where “because” could be used. Salvation comes before any works (See Ephesians 2:9)

Could anyone here produce a translation that has "because" used in the Acts2:38 verse? IMO--this is another example of the faith alone attempt to alter or deny what the scriptures bear testimony to--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him. It defies faith alone theology--so an alteration is demanded--change it to because--instead of "for":

New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

NET Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon said to them, “Return to God and be immersed everyone of you, in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua, for release from sin, so that you may receive the gift of The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized each one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,


Bump for anyone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

this is another example of the faith alone attempt to

Its "grace alone"
Not "faith alone".


Your welcome,

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Its "grace alone"
Not "faith alone".


Your welcome,

LOL.... It seems alanmolstad has begun his backpedalling.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

LOL.... It seems alanmolstad has begun his backpedalling.

“Among whom we all once lived in the p***ions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our tresp***es, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved.” Eph. 2:3-5


All of God’s wrath, all of the condemnation we deserve, was poured out on Jesus. All of God’s demands for perfect righteousness were fulfilled by Christ. The moment we see (by grace) this truth and receive him in this way his death counts as our death and his condemnation as our condemnation and his righteousness as our righteousness, and God becomes 100% irrevocably for us forever before we knew or obeyed His commands.
Paul is saying that, before regeneration, God’s wrath was on us. Those who are now saved were under wrath. This changed when God made us alive in Christ Jesus and awakened us to see the truth of Christ so that we received him as the one who died for us and as the one whose righteousness is counted as ours because of our union with Jesus. Before this happened to us, we were under God’s wrath. Then, because of faith in Christ and union with him, all God’s wrath was removed we are no longer blind and we want to obey His commands.

[alanmolstad]

As Walter Martin said...It's not by faith alone nor works alone or any combination of the two but by Grace Alone though faith we are saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As Walter Martin said...It's not by faith alone nor works alone or any combination of the two but by Grace Alone though faith we are saved.

Then why do the faith alone claim salvation comes through a faith alone theology? Walter Martin believed in the faith alone theology.

[alanmolstad]

Would you like me to post the link again ?

[alanmolstad]

Kind of weird.


I post this same video over and over where Martin teaches what I'm saying and yet you act surprised?


Someone needs to listen better

[alanmolstad]

Once again. ..

Not by faith alone
Nor by works alone
And not by any combination of the two

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Once again. ..

Not by faith alone
Nor by works alone
And not by any combination of the two

They seem to literally not see this......
They read the statement above,and their minds replace the words so it reads "Faith alone saves"
Then they turn around and demand of me, "Where does it say man is saved by faith alone as you believe?"

They just dont see what they are doing....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They seem to literally not see this......
They read the statement above,and their minds replace the words so it reads "Faith alone saves"
Then they turn around and demand of me, "Where does it say man is saved by faith alone as you believe?"

Answer: No where in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Answer: No where in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works?

are you on drugs?

some type of medication?

Im not judgmental here, but it would explain where you keep getting "Faith alone" out of my posts...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThey seem to literally not see this......
They read the statement above,and their minds replace the words so it reads "Faith alone saves"
Then they turn around and demand of me, "Where does it say man is saved by faith alone as you believe?"

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAnswer: No where in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

are you on drugs?

some type of medication?

Im not judgmental here, but it would explain where you keep getting "Faith alone" out of my posts...

I highlighted the terms in red--found in your post. Please reread my answer.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I highlighted the terms in red--found in your post. Please reread my answer.

Your Misrepresenting what Walter martin teaches is something that is clearly poor manners..
But now misrepresenting what I have said is only going to get you in some serious trouble with me...

be warned, you are going down a dark path....


(If that happens again I will try one more time, perhaps in a PM to draw you back from going off the cliff)

[alanmolstad]

listen....I have never said even once "Faith alone"

I have posted many times the video where you can hear from Walter martin tell you what the Bible teaches..

Why are you still confused?


Noting I have posted has said "Faith alone.
I have never once posted the words "Faith alone"

I dont believe such a thing,


I have posted many times a video that shows Walter Martin teaching clearly what the Bible is telling us on the topic.

I have quoted Walter many times, and you can check to make sure I have quoted him correctly as I have also pointed to the very spot on the recording that I'm quoting.

Walter Martin says we are not saved by Faith alone...nor works, nor any combination of the two.


You have the videos , you have seen and heard Walter talking at length on the topic.
I have quoted him over and over...

So lets try to document from now on any opinions as to Walter being a co-called "faith alone" teacher.
I dont think it is fair to intentionally misrepresent the teachings of Walter.

I shall post once again the recording of Walter answering the question about how we are saved.
If within the recording you find support for your views?..then quote the part that does.
But if at long last you start to see that what Walter is saying is actually the same thing I have been saying all along?..

Then I would expect this to end this matter here and now.

[alanmolstad]

There is this other recording of Walter addressing this very say issue.
This recording is very old, it goes back to when Walter was still making a name for himself in the ministry outreach to the CULTS.

I will even show you where to drag the computer mouse too so you can hear word for word what im going to be quoting , so you can make sure Im being honest and faithful to Walter's words.

Now look at 1:28:00
Its very near the ending of this video.

Notice that the JW that Walter is debating asks if we are saved By "Faith and works?"
Walter says "NO!"

Then notice the JW says "You are saved by Faith?...Just plain old faith?. Just say you believe?
Walter answers "NO! You are saved by Grace!"





....its getting to the point where Im going to move on to other topics.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

There is this other recording of Walter addressing this very say issue.
This recording is very old, it goes back to when Walter was still making a name for himself in the ministry outreach to the CULTS.

I will even show you where to drag the computer mouse too so you can hear word for word what im going to be quoting , so you can make sure Im being honest and faithful to Walter's words.

Now look at 1:28:00
Its very near the ending of this video.

Notice that the JW that Walter is debating asks if we are saved By "Faith and works?"
Walter says "NO!"

Then notice the JW says "You are saved by Faith?...Just plain old faith?. Just say you believe?
Walter answers "NO! You are saved by Grace!"





....its getting to the point where Im going to move on to other topics.

Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!





So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....


He says "NO!"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!

So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....

He says "NO!"

How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.

see -
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...972#post161972

attention to post number #23

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see -
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...972#post161972

attention to post number #23

Again--what do you find in post #23 or the video that might indicate Walter Martin was not of the faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--what do you find in post #23 ]

what do I find?.....






I find... that rather than answering a question, some people run away, try to change the topic, bring up other concerns desperately , and do ANYTHING they can to put the hounds off the scent.

I find... that the fact that Walter Martin clearly states his views does not matter to some people that need him to be thought of in a way that must agree with what they "want".


I find... that I am not surprised by this in the least.




But in the end,

I find that Walter Martin's wealth of wisdom, his wealth of teachings, his wealth of insightful recordings, and his wealth of ministry is a true treasure for us all to draw upon.
For he is and his Lord are the real reason any, and , ALL of us are here.








I also find,

I find it interesting that you would post at the end of your comment this - "James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" when at the end of the recording we hear Walter Martin talk about the two different types of "justification"

We learn that there is not just a justification by faith alone but also that there is a justification by works as well.

I have went over this same matter in my posts many, many times.
I have shown over and over that there are two different types of justification talked about in the Bible.
Both types are correct and both types are true.....yet both are different and are aimed at different ideas.
The recording of Walter martin deals with this whole topic in a lot better way that I could here, yet here I have answered this issue as best as I think it needed.

Please refer to the recording where Walter talks about the justification by works as compared to the justification by faith , if you have any more questions...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--what do you find in post #23 or the video that might indicate Walter Martin was not of the faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what do I find?.....

I find... that rather than answering a question, some people run away, try to change the topic, bring up other concerns desperately , and do ANYTHING they can to put the hounds off the scent.

I find... that the fact that Walter Martin clearly states his views does not matter to some people that need him to be thought of in a way that must agree with what they "want".


I find... that I am not surprised by this in the least.

But in the end,

I find that Walter Martin's wealth of wisdom, his wealth of teachings, his wealth of insightful recordings, and his wealth of ministry is a true treasure for us all to draw upon.
For he is and his Lord are the real reason any, and , ALL of us are here.

I also find,

I find it interesting that you would post at the end of your comment this - "James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" when at the end of the recording we hear Walter Martin talk about the two different types of "justification"

We learn that there is not just a justification by faith alone but also that there is a justification by works as well.

I have went over this same matter in my posts many, many times.
I have shown over and over that there are two different types of justification talked about in the Bible.
Both types are correct and both types are true.....yet both are different and are aimed at different ideas.
The recording of Walter martin deals with this whole topic in a lot better way that I could here, yet here I have answered this issue as best as I think it needed.

Please refer to the recording where Walter talks about the justification by works as compared to the justification by faith , if you have any more questions...

Alan--I don't find the first thing in your reply about how any of your material addresses the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. Nothing. Walter Martin believed just what faith alone adherents believe--one is saved by God's grace through a faith without works:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--I don't find the first thing in your reply about how any of your material addresses the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. Nothing. Walter Martin believed just what faith alone adherents believe--one is saved by God's grace through a faith without works:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

again....We are saved by Grace though faith and not "by" works.....


Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...
But we are not saved by works.

We are just not saved by works thats all....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Protestant Christianity, as well as some other denominations, from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement, as well as the Methodist Churches, which affirm that following regeneration, good works are ordinarily necessary for salvation.[1][2]

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".