Because or for?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

In the Bible there are two different types of "Justification" listed.

One deals with our faith
The other deals with our acts.


The first one that is dealing with our faith is something that only God can judge, for only he can see into a person true heart.
You cant see into my heart...I cant see into your heart.
Only God can see into our inner hearts, only he knows the real truth of the heart.

So this is why then we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.
For the Lord sees the heart, the lord alone sees our faith....





But what can we see?
We can only see the acts people do.


You can see what I do, and I can see what you do.

I can look at what a person does, I can hear what they say, and from this I can form a little private judgement as to what I "think" their faith is.


But I cant know for sure.

I can only guess at what your heart is,,,,I can only guess at your private faith.
Just as you can only guess at mine.


This is why we are only "Justified" by works before men's eyes.





So the justification by works is before men, yet the Justification by faith is before God.





and this gets us right back to (here it comes)...The fact that we are saved only by Grace though Faith and not by works.


Let me know if this is still unclear to you, for its important for me that you come here and receive the answers to your questions.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Protestant Christianity, as well as some other denominations, from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement, as well as the Methodist Churches, which affirm that following regeneration, good works are ordinarily necessary for salvation.[1][2]

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In the Bible there are two different types of "Justification" listed. One deals with our faith
The other deals with our acts.

Regardless of how many different types of Justification you believe the Bible deals with--in faith alone theology--it excludes all works in obtaining salvation.

So--what works are you referring to here?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Regardless of how many different types of Justification you believe the Bible deals with--in faith alone theology--it excludes all works in obtaining salvation.

So--what works are you referring to here?

when asked what are the works that God requires?...Jesus said that we have but one required work.....to believe!





So faith is the only work that counts....but its not the only work in our lives.
Let us hope that when you believe your life is filled with all manner of works, so that the unbeliever will look at the things that you will one day do, and judge your faith by them.



But let us also hope that you know the difference between a faith that is never without works, and religion that teaches salvation by works.


For believing in salvation via works is a dead end....it leads only to the world of the CULTS.

all CULTS teach a form of works-salvation, that keep their people from straying.



But I want you to be free....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

when asked what are the works that God requires?...Jesus said that we have but one required work.....to believe!

I was taught "works" is plural:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I was taught "works" is plural:

yes, and Jesus corrects him....and says its "the work" (singular)

check it out for yourself
http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm




So while my faith always has tons and tons of many types of works that flow from it, there is yet but one , single , lone, work that is required to bring forth.........FAITH!


This is the teaching of Jesus.

[alanmolstad]

as for the fact that the word "for" can mean the same thing as the word "because"?.....it's very true.




"Please put your car inside the shop for its raining"

"Please put your car inside the shop because it's raining"



The words "For" and "Because" can at times be interchanged.





Also, in the sentence "Please put your car inside the shop for/because it's raining" we have to always keep in mind that the idea of putting the car inside has no effect on the rain.
The rain is a fact,,,it's a done deal...nothing you do with the car will change anything about the rain.

But rather the idea of moving the car is in "RESPONSE" to the fact that it is raining.

The car does not change the weather......LOL

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as for the fact that the word "for" can mean the same thing as the word "because"?.....it's very true.




"Please put your car inside the shop for its raining"

"Please put your car inside the shop because it's raining"



The words "For" and "Because" can at times be interchanged.





Also, in the sentence "Please put your car inside the shop for/because it's raining" we have to always keep in mind that the idea of putting the car inside has no effect on the rain.
The rain is a fact,,,it's a done deal...nothing you do with the car will change anything about the rain.

But rather the idea of moving the car is in "RESPONSE" to the fact that it is raining.

The car does not change the weather......LOL

Why should anybody acknowledge your posts when you completely ignore facts. The fact is εἰς (Matt. 26:28 AGNT) in the greek is never ever ever used as because. There is around 1750 instances were eis is used. In every instance it's forward looking. Meaning that something done to achieve something else. There are many greek words that english translators use the word "for" to express their meaning.

For example, εἰς (Matt. 26:28 AGNT) is used. They specifically used εἰς because if any other form of for, such as because, is used it would destroy Christianity at it's core.

28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for(εἰς) forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:28 NAU)
Matthew 26:28 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου τῆς διαθήκης τὸ περὶ πολλῶν ἐκχυννόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. (Matt. 26:28 AGNT)

Notice how there isnt a greek word used for the first two "for" used in the verse.

38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for(εἰς) the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 NAU)

πρὸς is used for "because" in the greek. What would Mat. 26:28 look like if it was because?

28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many because(πρὸς) forgiveness of sins.

That defeats the whole purpose of His sacrifice. If we already had forgiveness of sins, then what in the world is He doing this for?

[alanmolstad]

just replace the words and see if the sentence works?....(hint- it does...LOL )

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

just replace the words and see if the sentence works?....(hint- it does...LOL )

it isnt that it just works well as I claim, its that it actually rarely does not work perfectly all the time!!!!


The real trick is to try to find a verse where you cant exchange the words back and forth!
Go out and try......try to find a verse that does not work just as well with either word being used....its not easy.


Thats how closely the meaning of the words are to each other...

You know this is true if every place you see the word used you can see how the other word changes nothing.



For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Now use the word "Because" and see if the verse changes at all?......(hint it don't)




For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life

[alanmolstad]

so when does a person get saved?

The answer is that you are saved when you believe...

No works too?....nope

Dont have to do anything?....nope

Dont have to do something at all....nope...

Just believe?,,,,,yes

It's that simple?

You just believe and you are saved and forgiven of all your sins?.....yes


so you dont have to be baptized?....nope, just consider the thief on the cross...totally saved, yet never baptized.
There is another story of people hearing the word of God and believing and speaking in tongues, yet not yet baptized,,,


So how does the Bible say we are saved?....We are saved by GRACE though FAITH, and not by works!






What roll is baptism then?....It's a work that is a part of the Justification by Works that is talked about in the Bible.


Why is the Justification By Works important to the church?....because we cant see into each other's heart, we can only judge what we see on the outsides.....we can only judge the works of people....that why works are always with our Faith.


This is why the bible says at times that they who believe and are baptized are saved....or...they who believe and speak something are saved...for saying something or doing something are just normal works that are flowing from a believers faith. ..

But speaking any words do not save nor taking a bath or shower does not save


We are saved only by grace working through our faith....not by any works at all

Not by any water regardless of the amount...not by any words no mater how well spoken...

For works and words are all matters that flow out of the hidden heart...they confirm our salvation.
But God sees into the hidden heart.and that is why we are saved by grace through the faith that only God sees

[alanmolstad]

But God sees the heart.

God knows all things, and he knows your heart before you ever walked down into the water...thus if you are not saved before you entered the water dont expect to be saved with you come out, for the water is not magic...going under the water does not make you believe...its not magic water...LOL


But is your heart is ready and you believe, then you are saved before even one drop of water hits your head.

[alanmolstad]

Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,

[alanmolstad]

that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

[alanmolstad]

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!





So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....


He says "NO!"

Once again, this simply shows the contradictory words of Walter Martin.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

listen....I have never said even once "Faith alone"

How does your never mention of "faith alone" somehow negate the fact the faith alone preach just that--faith alone? In case one is wondering--that is a theology that preaches one is saved through a faith without works. Walter Martin was one of those that preached the faith alone messege--one is saved through God's grace--independent of acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

IOW--a salvation by grace through a faith without works. That is faith alone theology--here is the Biblical response to the faith alone message:

James 2:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Walter Martin was one of those that preached the faith alone messege--

I posted the video....tell me where he says we are saved by "faith alone"?

You cant?

Oh too bad,,,did I catch you making stuff up again?.....

prove me wrong.
If you think you can find any place in the recording where Walter martin teaches we are saved by "Faith alone"...then do so now....I challenge you to.



But if you cant, then consider yourself "warned" to stop misrepresenting what Walter Martin says on the videos.

(perhaps you might be digging a hole here you did not mean to dig?.....If that is the case, I might suggest you clarify that you never once heard Walter Martin teach anything on the videos but we are saved by GRACE ALONE, and that the other stuff you said was just stuff you made up)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I posted the video....tell me where he says we are saved by "faith alone"?

That's not what the faith alone theology claims. That is the term(faith alone--sola fide) to describe the theology. The theology of faith alone is one is saved by God's grace without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

IOW--a salvation by Grace through a faith without works. The faith alone theology does not state one is saved by faith alone. But, one is saved through a faith that is alone in salvation by grace--not accompanied by works.

You are confusing what one is saved by in faith alone theology--and what one is saved through. The faith alone teach one is saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

That "faith" found in Ephesians28 is a faith without works, the faith alone claim--IOW--one is saved THROUGH(not by) dead faith.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Walter Martin preached the faith alone theology--one is saved by grace through a faith without works.No acts of obedience to Jesus Christ as necessary for God's salvational grace.

Again--the faith alone theology is addressed by the Biblical text--in the only occurrence of the term "faith alone" found in the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

You are guilty of misrepresentation of Walter Martin's views as well as my own.

You are clearly unable to quote any proof that Walter or I believe as you have claimed.

You continue to dig a hole..

I will have to decide how to respond to your poor behavior now.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's not what the faith alone theology claims. That is the term(faith alone--sola fide) to describe the theology. The theology of faith alone is one is saved by God's grace without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

IOW--a salvation by Grace through a faith without works. The faith alone theology does not state one is saved by faith alone. But, one is saved through a faith that is alone in salvation by grace--not accompanied by works.

You are confusing what one is saved by in faith alone theology--and what one is saved through. The faith alone teach one is saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

That "faith" found in Ephesians28 is a faith without works, the faith alone claim--IOW--one is saved THROUGH(not by) dead faith.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Walter Martin preached the faith alone theology--one is saved by grace through a faith without works.No acts of obedience to Jesus Christ as necessary for God's salvational grace.

Again--the faith alone theology is addressed by the Biblical text--in the only occurrence of the term "faith alone" found in the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You are guilty of misrepresentation of Walter Martin's views as well as my own.

You are clearly unable to quote any proof that Walter or I believe as you have claimed.

You continue to dig a hole..

I will have to decide how to respond to your poor behavior now.

You made an accusation--but did not provide the first evidence to back it up. What do you believe is false about my statements above, specifically?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You made an accusation--but did not provide the first evidence to back it up. What do you believe is false about my statements above, specifically?

You might want to refer to the guest known as "The way" if you think that just because there are so few posts on this forum that it means I am bluffing....

I have provided recordings on the teachings on Walter martin...I have also posted on this topic of salvation more than enough for you to supported your wild claims had they not just been stuff you invented out of thin air.

misrepresenting Martin will get you trouble...

misrepresenting me will get expensive...

[alanmolstad]

In the recording of Martin teaching on this topic os salvation.....
Martin says at :31 that "Salvation isn't by_____?

at :31 what does Martin salvation isn't by?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYou made an accusation--but did not provide the first evidence to back it up. What do you believe is false about my statements above, specifically?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You might want to refer to the guest known as "The way" if you think that just because there are so few posts on this forum that it means I am bluffing....

I have provided recordings on the teachings on Walter martin...I have also posted on this topic of salvation more than enough for you to supported your wild claims had they not just been stuff you invented out of thin air.

misrepresenting Martin will get you trouble...

misrepresenting me will get expensive...

I don't mind trouble or expense--but this is just another example of more accusations without the first bit of evidence as to what you are even referring to, specifically.

[alanmolstad]

In the recording of Martin teaching on this topic os salvation.....
Martin says at :31 that "Salvation isn't by_____?

at :31 what does Martin salvation isn't by?





Why cant you answer this question?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You might want to refer to the guest known as "The way" if you think that just because there are so few posts on this forum that it means I am bluffing....

I have provided recordings on the teachings on Walter martin...I have also posted on this topic of salvation more than enough for you to supported your wild claims had they not just been stuff you invented out of thin air.

misrepresenting Martin will get you trouble...

misrepresenting me will get expensive...

If his posts upset you so much and cause you so much anger, you might want to put him on ignore. That can be a good solution to such problems, it has been suggested.