Do Works Contribute to or Confirm Salvation?

[alanmolstad]

http://www.equip.org/articles/do-wor...istian-books-2





edit, in case you want to talking about other topics?..thats fine here too....like the use of the IGNORE SETTING.....

Ha ha...

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.equip.org/articles/do-wor...istian-books-2

I wouldn't say that "contribute" is the correct word. It's like saying one can contribute or add to Grace thereby making us MORE saved by Grace.
I would say that Grace only becomes effectual in our life as we exercise our faith in God by doing the works commanded by The Lord.

However that's besides the point, this whole idea either way in the hands of a Faith Aloner is a useless and contradictory point. I can prove this with just a few words and not like the nonsensical longwinded article you linked to.

If works has truely nothing to do salvation.... Then it is impossible for works to confirm or deny one's salvation, let alone contribute to it!


(Unless you believe that works performed after you are saved are required?)

[MichaellS]

Have to agree w/theway, “contribute” doesn’t quite identify that expression of faith initially. Possibly, in a circular reasoning, “confirm” could begin to convince due to witnessing or teaching with patience.

So initially, neither would apply. Over time, both could apply.

Tricky question.

Mike.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Have to agree w/theway,

I have theway on ignore...

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have theway on ignore...

Glad to talk with you, ,and glad I can.

Amazing, someone with such a long tally of comments to their credit and they up and get the boot.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Glad to talk with you, ,and glad I can.

Amazing, someone with such a long tally of comments to their credit and they up and get the boot.

I warned em....(they never listen)

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I warned em....(they never listen)

But the fruit of the Spirit is

• love,
• joy,
• peace,
• patience,
• kindness,
• goodness,
• faithfulness,
• gentleness,
• self-control;

against such things there is no law.(Gal 5:22,23)

““The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.” (Luke 10:2)

[alanmolstad]

like i said.....i warned them....i always warn people.
(just ask Sir-Billy-theway)

but if a person ends up on my ignore list its only because they wanted to be there......earned their ticket they did...






I think they must think Im kidding?
(Im not kidding)



Perhaps at the time they did not take my warnings (I always warn many times by the way) serious enough?
Maybe they felt that because there are so few guests here on this forum that this somehow means that I would/could not dare be serious about my warnings of their poor manners?
(I was serious)


Anyway, once they get on my IGNORE LIST thats it, their posts no longer appear on my screens and as far as I'm concerned such people no longer exist.


On a related note:
As far as why it so very important for people to be serious about what they allow on their own screens, it is because it is the only way to go.

Its the only means we have to show everyone on any forum we a member of that having their words appear on our computer screens is not a God-given "right" they enjoy!

....its a something they should feel lucky to have happen.....

If a person has their words on my screen it means that they have good manners, show respect, are kind to others, and are not a goon or a bully to others.
If your words are being read by me you can know that of all things, your words are a very good reflection on yourself, your parents, and the religion the you claim.

But trust me, Poor manners gets people the boot and I NEVER allow them to return to posting on my screen.
...They understand their poor manners cost them...

and that they only have themselves to blame.

[theway]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Glad to talk with you, ,and glad I can.

Amazing, someone with such a long tally of comments to their credit and they up and get the boot.

I think you misunderstand.. The fact that I am on alanmolstad's self created ignore list is a positive, not a negative. My posts are for Lurkers, not for him anyway. If I respond to his posts I only have Lurkers reading it in mind.
In fact, I have begged to be put on his ignore list. However we all know that he really reads our posts anyway.
It's a little game AntiMormons play. They pretend by putting people on ignore that they are above all the argument and debate, but in reality it is because they lose all the arguments and debates is why they ignore us.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

like i said.....i warned them....i always warn people.
(just ask Sir-Billy-theway)

but if a person ends up on my ignore list its only because they wanted to be there......earned their ticket they did...






I think they must think Im kidding?
(Im not kidding)



Perhaps at the time they did not take my warnings (I always warn many times by the way) serious enough?
Maybe they felt that because there are so few guests here on this forum that this somehow means that I would/could not dare be serious about my warnings of their poor manners?
(I was serious)


Anyway, once they get on my IGNORE LIST thats it, their posts no longer appear on my screens and as far as I'm concerned such people no longer exist.


On a related note:
As far as why it so very important for people to be serious about what they allow on their own screens, it is because it is the only way to go.

Its the only means we have to show everyone on any forum we a member of that having their words appear on our computer screens is not a God-given "right" they enjoy!

....its a something they should feel lucky to have happen.....

If a person has their words on my screen it means that they have good manners, show respect, are kind to others, and are not a goon or a bully to others.
If your words are being read by me you can know that of all things, your words are a very good reflection on yourself, your parents, and the religion the you claim.

But trust me, Poor manners gets people the boot and I NEVER allow them to return to posting on my screen.
...They understand their poor manners cost them...

and that they only have themselves to blame.

Are you REALLY SO ARROGANT to think that YOUR participation in the conversation here is so TERRIBLY important that you are 'punishing' someone if you refuse to talk to them?

NOT a 'Godly at***ude' if you ask me. Just a LOUSY WITNESS.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

Are you REALLY SO ARROGANT to think that YOUR participation in the conversation here is so TERRIBLY important that you are 'punishing' someone if you refuse to talk to them?

NOT a 'Godly at***ude' if you ask me. Just a LOUSY WITNESS.

I did try to warn them....

But they only have themselves to blame.

Bad manners are expensive....
Im sure if they would have felt that I was worth talking to in the future at all that they would not have kept doing the one thing they knew full well would get themselves on my IGNORE list.

So thats "theway" they wanted it, so they gets it.

[MichaellS]

On a positive note, it is nice to hear that indeed there is some form of restraint here. But speaking of ignore, with that level of watch-dogging, I think that would properly be placed in the hands of them who are found to be “beyond reproach”. What can we expect to happen if you have been found to err here or there somehow? I mean com’n, that really was quite a bit of stiff-arm commentary even if it may have been fully warranted, I don’t know, I wasn't there.

Generally speaking, if I got a chance to delve on anything that strikes our interest, , I mean anybody, , you and me, can every commenter here honestly say “I value that”, without the long awaited pre-conceived chance to push the red-hot ****on. Yeah, I’ve failed that, and true, it’s a terrible witness when it happens. Or is this what is thought of as a healthy dialog during debate?

But ignore does have its place. I see here added interest in this topic with others joining, but nary a flinch towards my ref of Gal 5. I wonder why? Maybe that seemed out of place – goodness me – I hope not!

So, what’s wrong with asking if it’s me that needs to get up to speed to Gal 5? The laborers are few here. I’m not saying its wrong to think "I fair ok". What I’m saying is to do a gut-check of ch5 and step out of the disputable “box” every now and then. Cause I have seen some heavily circular bouts in the past with neither willing to allow any rope whatsoever. This is what you want to be known by as your life in Christ?

Mike.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

On a positive note, it is nice to hear that indeed there is some form of restraint here. But speaking of ignore, with that level of watch-dogging, I think that would properly be placed in the hands of them who are found to be “beyond reproach”. What can we expect to happen if you have been found to err here or there somehow? I mean com’n, that really was quite a bit of stiff-arm commentary even if it may have been fully warranted, I don’t know, I wasn't there.

Generally speaking, if I got a chance to delve on anything that strikes our interest, , I mean anybody, , you and me, can every commenter here honestly say “I value that”, without the long awaited pre-conceived chance to push the red-hot ****on. Yeah, I’ve failed that, and true, it’s a terrible witness when it happens. Or is this what is thought of as a healthy dialog during debate?

But ignore does have its place. I see here added interest in this topic with others joining, but nary a flinch towards my ref of Gal 5. I wonder why? Maybe that seemed out of place – goodness me – I hope not!

So, what’s wrong with asking if it’s me that needs to get up to speed to Gal 5? The laborers are few here. I’m not saying its wrong to think "I fair ok". What I’m saying is to do a gut-check of ch5 and step out of the disputable “box” every now and then. Cause I have seen some heavily circular bouts in the past with neither willing to allow any rope whatsoever. This is what you want to be known by as your life in Christ?

Mike.

I have to agree with you Mike. I have noticed that many people see this as a contest as if there were an audience somewhere watching and all that matters is wining the argument. In reality it is a privilege and responsibility to share the Gospel and discuss all of God's word but our prideful nature often rules our discussions.
I've said many things I wish I could un-say, but each one is a lesson. It's good to be a workman who is confident and unashamed but it's also wise to listen and answer in a way that doesn't cause wrath. Easy to say, hard to do.

[alanmolstad]

The other day a guest or two shows up here we had not seen for years.

Right away they get into a huge argument with another new guest that also had not been seen here in years.
They seem to be in the middle of bickering about things that are not even slightly connected to the topic they had jumped into the middle of.
In fact, they were bickering about issues that had nothing to do with this forum.

They both started to post links to different topics on the CARM message forum.
Some of the topics were locked, and seem to have been locked for a long-long time?

So I post to one of the people a suggestion that they try to get along and also try to keep their posts a bit more centered on the topic at hand.
My attempt to get them to show some respect and play by the rules failed.

They took the argument to the next level and both started to post very personal attacks against each other.
Again, nothing they were talking about any anything to do with this forum.

After a while, when it became clear this was headed down hill to the point where the MODs would need to interfere, I suggested to both of them that they might try to use their IGNORE LIST to keep from saying things that were against the rules, or caring so much what the other person said.

But they kept going at it.

My suggestion also failed.

I did a little checking in their past posts on the forum.
I went back into the history of their old posts and saw that no matter how far back into the records I went the same two or three people were bickering and getting each other BANNED going back years!

I gave up checking their old post histories back around the year 2011, but as far as I could see even way back then the same two or 3 people were getting BANNED at CARM, returning to this forum, fighting with each other, getting very personal, and ending up BANNED here too over and over..

When I learned this fact, (That these people are nuts) I suggested that had they used the IGNORE setting YEARS AGO, on this forum or at CARM, that they would not get into such painful-personal fights with the same people year after year.

I was criticized for even bringing up the IGNORE list.

Clearly fighting....Clearly making smart-mouthed personal attacks on each other.....Clearly getting BANNED over and over.....was both their goals!


They think this is the way they show their faith.
They think this is how they bring others to their side.
They both think this is how you win souls.
They both criticized me for suggesting they the use of the IGNORE LIST to end this.


They both were wrong.
They both were crazy.
They both acted like children bickering over a toy.

Oh and yes, they got banned...(oh and by the way, that trick is hard to do on this forum )


This is why I dont even finish reading the posts that criticize my use of the IGNORE LIST!


I have a few people on my IGNORE LIST that earned their place there only after all my attempts to get them to keep the rules had failed, and the result in every case is ......peace.

No more fighting...
No more pointless arguments...
No more personal attacks...
No more endless attempts to get the other person to admit their were wrong...
No more temptations to get down in the mud with them...
No more being in danger of being BANNED from here myself...
No more trouble from the other person at all...

Its like they stopped existing...


I post here on topics that are of interest to me.
I dont come here to "Win souls"
I dont come here to "Win" the argument.
I dont come here to win anything.
I dont come here to learn anything from anybody.

I just like to come here to write on topics that are of interest to me...because I like to write.
I like to write because it allows me to bring out the best in myself...
I like to write because I am able to bring out a deeper personal understanding of things I might not have totally thought though in the past.
I believe that the more I write on a topic the less chance I will have in the future of regretting something I may have said to others, because my being able to write on a topic here helps me learn a topic in a deeper way.

People that dont know what they are talking about get angry, get used to ending a conversation with hate-filled words.
I can stay calm here, because I dont have to win.

[Christian]

Aaawww, he doesn't like being challenged by those who ask HARD questions. As for being banned on CARM, I have been banned about 3 times in the many years I have posted there. Every time it was for posting HARD things to 'oneness pentecostals,' another cultic group that calls themselves 'Christian.' The person who whined then had himself been banned many times each year, sometimes for very long times.

If you have nothing HARD to say, you don't get banned.

You SAY you don't like fighting, personal attacks, endless attempts to get the other person to admit 'their' wrong, yet you do ALL of those things. Isn't that a little hypocritical of you?

Your posts sometimes have decent points to ponder, but your participation is too much about YOU and not enough about the issues at hand, imho. Your whine about how others post and how you stick them into your ignore list has nothing to do of course, with the OP at all. You would rather whine about YOU than to address the OP.

BTW, I have been posting with SOME regularity in this forum ever since I began a year or two ago. AND of course YOU have been arguing with the same people for a long time too, haven't you?

Yes, we KNOW you don't come here to LEARN anything. You just come here to spout your own stuff and hope you are not challenged.

But that doesn't seem to be what these forums are about. . .

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]
You SAY you don't like fighting, personal attacks, endless attempts to get the other person to admit 'their' wrong, yet you do ALL of those things.

I never make personal attacks.....ever.
I do disagree with people, but I always maintain good manners, and never start spitting on the other person.

I set a good example.

I try to promote my own views, rather than ripping down the other person in a personal way.
I try to disagree with the other person's "ideas" and not with them as a person.

If Im talking with a guy in a CULT, then I try to keep my remarks about the CULT and the CULT's teachings and history.
I dont want to start talking about "John Doe's teachings, or his personal history"

I do watch how some people do this personal attacking of each other all the time, and when I try to suggest a different way, they support their own bad manners and rule breaking by telling me that rules and good manners dont matter when they are "Witnessing to lost people"

I guess their thinking is that they can break the rules as long as they have God on their side?

Over the years I have seen a lot of guests try to hide behind the Cross as they broke the rules.
Patting themselves on the back when they list all the times and situations where they themselves have been banned for breaking the rules.

What do I think of that kind of "Being right makes it ok" way of thinking?

History shows us, it has not worked out all that well for them...

[Christian]

alan posted:

I never make personal attacks.....ever.
I do disagree with people, but I always maintain good manners, and never start spitting on the other person.

I set a good example.

I try to promote my own views, rather than ripping down the other person in a personal way.
I try to disagree with the other person's "ideas" and not with them as a person.

If Im talking with a guy in a CULT, then I try to keep my remarks about the CULT and the CULT's teachings and history.
I dont want to start talking about "John Doe's teachings, or his personal history"

I do watch how some people do this personal attacking of each other all the time, and when I try to suggest a different way, they support their own bad manners and rule breaking by telling me that rules and good manners dont matter when they are "Witnessing to lost people"

EVERYTHING I do is a witness to others of what I believe. IF I WERE A FALLING DOWN DRUNK lying in the gutter, I would be a witness of what I believed, but a LOUSY WITNESS FOR JESUS since people KNOW I am a Christian.

I guess their thinking is that they can break the rules as long as they have God on their side?

Did Jesus make the CARM rules? OR YOURS? Naah.

Paul and Silas seem to have broken some rules too! They were put in jail for it, whipped for it, etc etc etc.

Over the years I have seen a lot of guests try to hide behind the Cross as they broke the rules.

The cross is a WONDERFUL place to hide behind! I'll take the CROSS to hide behind LONG before I would ever consider hiding behind joey smith, baal, or any of the mormon 'authority' junk.

Patting themselves on the back when they list all the times and situations where they themselves have been banned for breaking the rules.

Jesus was banned for breaking the rules; He was hung on a cross.
Most of the Apostles died horrible deaths; banned as martyrs for braking the rules too.

What do I think of that kind of "Being right makes it ok" way of thinking?

Being right SURE BEATS BEING WRONG in the matter of salvation!

History shows us, it has not worked out all that well for them...


It hasn't worked out badly. After all they ARE IN HEAVEN NOW, not in he** where most of smith's followers are headed.

[alanmolstad]

Yes I have seen the same stuff over and over though the years. Guys try to hide behind the cross while they knowingly break the rules. .

What do I think of this?
I notice that it never works for the guys who try it....so I don't.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes I have seen the same stuff over and over though the years. Guys try to hide behind the cross while they knowingly break the rules. .

What do I think of this?
I notice that it never works for the guys who try it....so I don't.

Well. . . . . .you SAY you don't.

But whether you really DO or don't, whatever you are doing doesn't seem to be working for you.

All it is doing is demonstrating to all of us that YOUR religion is all about YOU.

And of course it is exposing your arrogant position that you think you are just SOOOOOOOOOOOOO important.

Personally, I don't see anyone 'stepping up to the plate' to DEFEND your arrogance!

So who CARES what you think of this? You cannot bother to be confused by the TRUTH that you aren't so TERRIBLY IMPORTANT that we would ever miss you if you put us in your 'ignore' list.

[alanmolstad]

I dont come here to win souls.

i dont come here to win anything.

I only like to write about my own personal views...I like to show what I think the Bible teaches.
most of the time I could not care less what others post, or what others believe.

But I do make sure that if a person has their words on my screen, that this is because their post was written within the rules that govern this place, and have a style that is not offensive.

If more people did the same there would be less problems, and no need for MODs

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont come here to win souls.

i dont come here to win anything.

I only like to write about my own personal views...I like to show what I think the Bible teaches.
most of the time I could not care less what others post, or what others believe.

But I do make sure that if a person has their words on my screen, that this is because their post was written within the rules that govern this place, and have a style that is not offensive.

If more people did the same there would be less problems, and no need for MODs

So it is still all about YOU. I see. YOUR screen, YOUR opinion, YOUR religion. Okay. If I see anything interesting about JESUS CHRIST from you I will respond. But I don't care a WHIT about YOUR opinions. I have opinions of my own. CHRISTIANITY is about JESUS CHRIST, not just about ourselves and what WE like.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

So it is still all about YOU. I see. YOUR screen, YOUR opinion, YOUR religion. ..

Yes...
Very true.
I can only control what appears on MY computer screen..

This means that I cant control what others write, their manners, their style, their topics or their behavior.
This is why when I run into a guy (not always guys by the way) who has a smart-mouth, and openly is breaking the agreed-to rules, that I warn them that unless they conform to the rules that they had already given their word that they would follow when they first signed on, that I would place them on ignore.

At that point its really out of my hands.

The other person has to decide if Im serious?*...and if they care?

Some of the time the other person does care that their words are able to be read by others, so they back-off the rule breaking so they dont cross the line.
But unfortunately a lot of people I see on the different forums Im a member of simply don't care if I can read their posts or not.

Its sad but very true that we get some BANNED guests here from CARM that had no intention of following the rules.
They come here knowing from the start that in just a little while their bad manners are going to get them BANNED again.
They have a plan to break rules, be snotty to other guests, and make bitter personal attacks in an effort to make others look bad before the MOD lowers the boom on them and they get BANNED.

To such guests we really have only one option, and that is to place their name on our IGNORE LIST.
The moment you or I do this we end the trouble with the other person before they get too far out of hand.

Now a person might hesitate putting a troublemaker on IGNORE as that would allow the other person to make all sorts of attacks against them without us knowing it because their posts would not appear.
My answer to that is - "Who cares?"

Who cares that they have a sissy-fit and post snotty remarks?
Their words don't appear on my screen so they no longer matter to me, nor their opinions of me.
I'm sure that the 3 people that I have currently on my IGNORE list on this forum, as well as the people I have on IGNORE on other forms got all mad at me when they learned that their insults were no longer being read by me.
im sure they may have tried to post many, many insulting comments aimed at me later.

But as I never read any of them, and I no longer care what they think of me, "Who cares?"



So yes, it is all about "my screen"...for I only see my screen, and it is only my screen that Im looking at.
My screen is the only one I have full control over, its the only one I have any input in what I allow on to it.
My screen is the only one I care about.

and yes, "my opinion"is the only one that I can listen to.
If I believe that a person has crossed the line, and in "my opinion" has earned their place on IGNORE, then I dont have to listen to one more word from them...I give them the boot and thats it.
not another peep from them will ever need concern me for the rest of their lives.

And as for "my religion"being my only concern?....oh yes, Im not here to learn squat from others about their religion.
I simply dont care what others are into...











[ * The only way a person can really know if Im serious is by the way I have acted in the past. This means that once I put a name on my IGNORE list I can never remove their name, ever. This is the only way to show the next guy that I have a track record that can be checked and this will allow that next person I warn to fully understand that I'm not bluffing.]

[alanmolstad]

again...
I have seen a TON......I mean a TON of people try to say that they were acting "Just like Jesus" while they insulted people, cussed people out, baited people, made fun of them, and told other people they were "worthless lairs"

To such people all I have to say is this -


"Try to keep the rules"



I got to also add one other thing about their "Just like Jesus ' comment and that is this...

My wife works in the rehab part of the local hospital.
I visit her from time to time and see these little kids, missing arms and legs...
I watch them as they struggle to hold and toss a ball.....I watch them as they stumble as they try to learn to walk over to a ball and kick it.

So you want to act "Just like Jesus"?...well fine, go act like that there ....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

........
I got to also add one other thing about their "Just like Jesus ' comment and that is this...

My wife works in the rehab part of the local hospital.
I visit her from time to time and see these little kids, missing arms and legs...
I watch them as they struggle to hold and toss a ball.....I watch them as they stumble as they try to learn to walk over to a ball and kick it.

So you want to act "Just like Jesus"?...well fine, go act like that there ....

i love my comment here...

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I did try to warn them....

But they only have themselves to blame.

Bad manners are expensive....
Im sure if they would have felt that I was worth talking to in the future at all that they would not have kept doing the one thing they knew full well would get themselves on my IGNORE list.

So thats "theway" they wanted it, so they gets it.

Sorry, but you are not that important imho. If I put YOU on my own ignore list, you would be residing there all by yourself. But then again, you are not all that interesting.