The apostasy

[Christian]

Originally Posted by theway

If true... Then where is my incentive to lose faith in the heretics???

I don't think you thought that one through very well.

IF you believe the heretic joey smith, changing your mind and leaving his false religion is NOT NECESSARILY to go to God. You could become an atheist, a catholic, a jw, or a branch davidian.

You would just be leaving the heretic joey smith (a GOOD thing and perhaps a START in the right direction even though you may be led into a DIFFERENT cult before leaving that one and coming to God).

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Plus, Lessfish wants us to have less faith in heretics. To the church that excommunicated Martin Luther for heresy/apostasy, Luther was a heretic. So if we have less faith in Luther's teachings, we are having less faith in a heretic, which then should make Lessfish happy, right?

To the God of the Bible, anyone (such as joey smith) who claims DIFFERENT gods is a heretic. You pretended a strawman, then argued against it.

I do not think you should follow Luther's teachings. I think you should follow GOD'S teachings, the BIBLE as Luther began to do.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by theway

AntiMormons contradict themselves all too easily.... Is like shooting morefish is a barrel.

Mormons contradict themselves even MORE. And if you think morefish is a barrel, BOY ARE YOU WRONG!

Perhaps if you 'wood'nt' believe that mormon junk, you could 'stave' off Hell!

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

Perhaps if you 'wood'nt' believe that mormon junk, you could 'stave' off Hell!

Oh I see... So now it's not who I believe in, which will save me, it's what I don't believe in that will save me???
Boy, those contradictions just keep on coming.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

IF you believe the heretic joey smith, changing your mind and leaving his false religion is NOT NECESSARILY to go to God. You could become an atheist, a catholic, a jw, or a branch davidian.

You would just be leaving the heretic joey smith (a GOOD thing and perhaps a START in the right direction even though you may be led into a DIFFERENT cult before leaving that one and coming to God).

Like I said, then what's the point in not believing in someone who you believe to be a heretic, if it doesn't make a difference one way or the other???

[Christian]

Originally Posted by theway

Like I said, then what's the point in not believing in someone who you believe to be a heretic, if it doesn't make a difference one way or the other???

It depends upon your reason for leaving the heretic like joey smith. IF you have found the REAL God, that leaving is a good thing. IF it is 'on the trail' to the truth, it is a good thing. If it is to join a different cult or because you have become an atheist, it doesn't make any difference at all whether you stay or go.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by theway

Oh I see... So now it's not who I believe in, which will save me, it's what I don't believe in that will save me???
Boy, those contradictions just keep on coming.

No contradictions. Just your twisting of my words to pretend I said something I did not.

Yep, you mormons DO seem to have a problem. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Because (of course, but you don't like this) they (the reformers) had been part of the catholic religion, NOT Christianity up to that point, and they LEFT the catholic religion to join Christianity which was alive and well and doing just fine.[/COLOR]

If it was doing just fine--then what Christian group could you identify for us the Reformers joined with?

Christian--the Reformers started a whole new set of denominations--with a whole new theology--sola fide. It's referred to as "Protestantism".

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If it was doing just fine--then what Christian group could you identify for us the Reformers joined with?

Christian--the Reformers started a whole new set of denominations--with a whole new theology--sola fide. It's referred to as "Protestantism".

They joined with the rest of the CHRISTIANS, left the rcc religion.

Just WHERE is the headquarters of this church 'protestant' that the catholics made up and the mormons were suckered into believing exists somewhere?

WHO leads this "protestant" religion?

Your religion is ignorant to the fact that the catholics made up the term to have something to 'dump' all NON-catholics (including mormons) into.

The TRUTH is that CHRISTIANITY is alive and well and has been around about 2,000 years now. The 'catholic' religions have been around about 1,700 years now. The mormon religions (all 150+ of them) have been around less than 200 years.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

They joined with the rest of the CHRISTIANS, left the rcc religion.

What??? Where and who was this group of Christians which already existed that they joined?

That also begs the question; were those left in the RCC saved or not?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000FF]They joined with the rest of the CHRISTIANS, left the rcc religion.

If they joined with the rest of the Christians--then why did they start whole new denominations?

Just WHERE is the headquarters of this church 'protestant' that the catholics made up and the mormons were suckered into believing exists somewhere?

The headquarters of the different Protestant denomination might be located in sundry different places, IE--the WEL Luthern headquarters is located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, some other Protestant denomination might be in Tennessee, etc.

WHO leads this "protestant" religion?

It varies with the particular church and location. And that is my point--no such doctrine nor example can be found in the Biblical NT--there was only one denomination there that Christ recognized--and it was founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone.

Does your church have living, mortal apostles and prophets?

The TRUTH is that CHRISTIANITY is alive and well and has been around about 2,000 years now.

Again--if Christianity was alive and well--then why the need for the Reformation?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Martin Luther didn't just call it an apostasy, he said Christianity DIED. This man, one of the most well-known reformers, made the statement that because of the corruption made within the Church of Jesus Christ, Christianity was no longer on the earth.

"I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it." (Luther and His Times, p. 509).

Thank you for educating us on the position that the founder of the Reformation held. I wasn't aware of this.

[alanmolstad]

I believe I have already posted on this forum the 95 reasons behind the reformation.

The reasons centered around money.
The big objection had to do with the way funds for building programs were being used.

But when you read the 95 reasons, you dont really find any stuff against the faith as it were..
These are all sideline issues and not the core of our Christian faith.

basecly we are talking about the "administration " of how the church was organized...
The core teachings like One God....The death and resurrection of Christ...remain unchanged...

[alanmolstad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses

[alanmolstad]

Thesis 86, which poses the question: "Why does the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Cr***us, build the basilica of Saint Peter with the money of poor believers rather than with his own money?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Martin Luther didn't just call it an apostasy, he said Christianity DIED. This man, one of the most well-known reformers, made the statement that because of the corruption made within the Church of Jesus Christ, Christianity was no longer on the earth.

"I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it." (Luther and His Times, p. 509).

Hi Child:

To be sure--many of the "Reformers" thought of it as more of a restoration, rather than a "Reformation". If they had thought the true church was to be found on the earth--they would have joined with that church. Instead--they formed new denominations--with new theologies.

The post and pillar of Protestantism is "sola fide"--faith alone---a salvation through a faith without works:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The faith alone preach salvation through a dead faith--something Christ warned about:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.