The apostasy

[Saxon]

Once again, What part of not of works , do you not understand?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Once again, What part of not of works , do you not understand?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hi Saxon.

How do you relate the fact that salvation is not of works, therefore--God can't be giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--to the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The LDS do not believe it is of works. It's by God's grace. That salvational grace goes to them that obey Him:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Could you explain for us how you are using Ephesians2 to negate what the scriptures bear testimony to--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him? That God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him in no way violates Ephesians2:8-9.

The scriptures do not state it's the obedience that saves--only that it's the obedient that what does save--God's grace--goes to:

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Saxon]

Answer my question.

What part of not of works , do you not understand?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Saxon.

How do you relate the fact that salvation is not of works, therefore--God can't be giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--to the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The LDS do not believe it is of works. It's by God's grace. That salvational grace goes to them that obey Him:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Could you explain for us how you are using Ephesians2 to negate what the scriptures bear testimony to--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him? That God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him in no way violates Ephesians2:8-9.

The scriptures do not state it's the obedience that saves--only that it's the obedient that what does save--God's grace--goes to:

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Answer my question.

What part of not of works , do you not understand?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Please reread my above post. No one is suggesting it is by works.

[Saxon]

All along you are saying that it is by works and now you are saying that no one is suggesting it is by works. make up your mind.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

I believe you are ignoring the elephant in the room. Again--if there was no apostasy--then why the need for a Reformation? If they "simply went back to the ORIGINAL theology,"--then the original theology must have been lost to begin with.

Just because the Roman Catholic Church went astray does not mean that everyone went astray. The fact that there were people that were trying to “reform” the Roman Catholic Church supports the fact that the true faith was still operating in the lives of the real people of God. There was and is no need to restore what was never lost.

IMO--it's not an honest approach when we ignore the obvious to promote our own theology--that amounts to little less than boundary maintenance.

To that statement, I am in total agreement! You are the one promoting your own theology when you compare what you teach to what the Bible teaches.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

All along you are saying that it is by works and now you are saying that no one is suggesting it is by works. make up your mind.

Cite, please. Where does one find a reference to your accusation?

[Saxon]

You are a Mormon. That is all that is needed.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Just because the Roman Catholic Church went astray does not mean that everyone went astray. The fact that there were people that were trying to “reform” the Roman Catholic Church supports the fact that the true faith was still operating in the lives of the real people of God. There was and is no need to restore what was never lost.

You might want to relay that to the Reformers--who started numerous new denominations. Again--if what you stated is true---they "simply went back to the ORIGINAL theology,"--then the original theology must have been lost to begin with.

To that statement, I am in total agreement! You are the one promoting your own theology when you compare what you teach to what the Bible teaches.

How so? That is just a straw man accusation without the first evidence to back it. The faith alone surely don't conform to Biblical truths:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Just because the Roman Catholic Church went astray does not mean that everyone went astray. The fact that there were people that were trying to “reform” the Roman Catholic Church supports the fact that the true faith was still operating in the lives of the real people of God. There was and is no need to restore what was never lost.

You might want to relay that to the Reformers--who started numerous new denominations. Again--if what you stated is true---they "simply went back to the ORIGINAL theology,"--then the original theology must have been lost to begin with.

To that statement, I am in total agreement! You are the one promoting your own theology when you compare what you teach to what the Bible teaches.

How so? That is just a straw man accusation without the first evidence to back it. The faith alone surely don't conform to Biblical truths:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Saxon]

What makes you thing that all the reformers even left the "original" theology??

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

What makes you thing that all the reformers even left the "original" theology??

Because if they hadn't left the original--there would be no need to reform anything. Why would one start a whole new denomination--with a new theology--if what they had was unpolluted?

[Saxon]

They were reforming the Roman Catholic Church, not Christianity.

[Saxon]

Article of Faith of the Mormon Church

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

They were reforming the Roman Catholic Church, not Christianity.

The Reformers did not reform the Roman Catholic church. They started new denominations with a new theology--called "sola fide":

Origin of the term--Welcome to Wikipedia,

Martin Luther elevated sola fide to the principal cause of the Protestant Reformation, the rallying cry of the Protestant cause, and the chief distinction between Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholicism. John Calvin, also a proponent of this doctrine, taught that "every one who would obtain the righteousness of Christ must renounce his own." According to Calvin, it is only because the sinner is able to obtain the good standing of the Son of God, through faith in him, and union with him, that sinners have any hope of pardon from, acceptance by, and peace with God.

While this precise terminology—"by faith alone"—does not appear in English Bible translations other than in James 2:24 where it has been claimed that the author seems to reject the notion that a person is justified by God solely on account of faith,[19] other Catholic authorities also used "alone" in their translation of Romans 3:28 or exegesis of salvation by faith p***ages,[20][21] and it is claimed to summarize the teaching of the New Testament, and especially the Pauline epistles such as Romans 4, which systematically reject the proposition that justification before God is obtained due to the merit of one's obedience to the Law of Moses (see also Biblical law in Christianity), or Abraham's circumcision and works.

Protestants base this on the fact that the New Testament contains almost two hundred statements that appear to imply that faith or belief is sufficient for salvation. For example: "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25, emphasis added). And especially Paul's words in Romans, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28) "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:4-5)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Article of Faith of the Mormon Church

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Works.

How does that differ from the Biblical testimony?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[/B]

[Saxon]

the Roman Catholic Church did not move from their error so the reformers rejected them.

When did Wikipedia become the rule of Christianity over the bible?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

the Roman Catholic Church did not move from their error so the reformers rejected them.

Yup--and started a whole new set of denominations. If they already had the truth--then why would they either feel a need to reform the Catholic Church--or start new denominations?

When did Wikipedia become the rule of Christianity over the bible?

Another taint so! statement. How are you relating what I posted from Wiki to the Bible?

Saxon--intelligent and effective arguments are not made with taint so! or straw man positions. Take the information--flesh out the specific point you would like to make--use any useful information you deem as supporting evidence--and make an intelligent argument.

Wiki is spot on with their ***essment--sola fide(faith alone) was the post and pillar of the Reformers--and one of the main differences between the Protestant Reformers theology--and the Roman Catholic theology.

The Reformers started a whole new set of denominations--that continue to multiply today.

How does that compare to the one denomination the Savior accepted in the NT--with the living, mortal apostles and prophets forming it's foundation? Do you have living, mortal apostles and prophets that form your foundation? If not--then that is probably one reason why there are numerous denominations.

[Saxon]

You are not making intelligent arguments. You ignore the Bible when it says "Not Of Works". And the Mormon's aren't multiplying their denominations?

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Saxon]

Not of works. There are no works that will get you salvation. Salvation is a free gift of God. Gifts are not a product of works.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Not of works.

Hi Saxon.

Again--where do you see anyone making the argument salvation is by works? Salvation comes by God's grace--and the Biblical record testifies that God's grace unto life goes to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That is the reality you have not addressed--nor the faith alone seem willing to address. One has to have a way of collating the scriptures--instead of pitting them against one another.

The LDS collate the scriptures of faith and works in this fashion--all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ are integral components to faith in Christ. The faith alone separate the two and place them in separate piles. IOW--a salvation through a faith without works.

They have no way of harmonizing the works scriptures with the faith scriptures--they just pit them against one another--quoting Ephesians2:8 whenever any scriptures are quoted that have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

Saxon--you can't make your point through that form of exegesis--and render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth in doing so.

IOW--pitting the scriptures against themselves does nothing but show you have no argument that harmonizes the Biblical record.

The LDS use this exegesis in harmonizing the scriptures--whenever you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--all obedience to Christ is an integral component to that term.

For example--whenever the scriptures command repentance and water baptism for God's salvational grace of the remission of sins--then repentance and water baptism is considered integral components to faith in Christ.

We do the same in language usage in our own vernacular, IE--

Term: Car ----- Integral components: engine, transmission, wheels, doors, windows, etc.

Term: House ---- Integral components: foundation, roof, walls, windows, floors, etc.

Term: faith ---- Integral components: belief, obedience to Christ, trust, endurance, repentance, water baptism, etc.

That harmonizes the Biblical record instead of pitting it against itself. And you will have to find a way to harmonize it--or it will remain a record and testimony you pit against it's own self.

Matthew 4:4--King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[Saxon]

Salvation is a gift from God. Gifts are not because of a work that is done or it would be a payment. What is it about "not of works" that you don't understand??

[alanmolstad]

Listen to the part on salvation that starts at 3:35 of the video

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Saxon.

Again--where do you see anyone making the argument salvation is by works? Salvation comes by God's grace--and the Biblical record testifies that God's grace unto life goes to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That is the reality you have not addressed--nor the faith alone seem willing to address. One has to have a way of collating the scriptures--instead of pitting them against one another.

The LDS collate the scriptures of faith and works in this fashion--all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ are integral components to faith in Christ. The faith alone separate the two and place them in separate piles. IOW--a salvation through a faith without works.

They have no way of harmonizing the works scriptures with the faith scriptures--they just pit them against one another--quoting Ephesians2:8 whenever any scriptures are quoted that have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

Saxon--you can't make your point through that form of exegesis--and render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth in doing so.

IOW--pitting the scriptures against themselves does nothing but show you have no argument that harmonizes the Biblical record.

The LDS use this exegesis in harmonizing the scriptures--whenever you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--all obedience to Christ is an integral component to that term.

For example--whenever the scriptures command repentance and water baptism for God's salvational grace of the remission of sins--then repentance and water baptism is considered integral components to faith in Christ.

We do the same in language usage in our own vernacular, IE--

Term: Car ----- Integral components: engine, transmission, wheels, doors, windows, etc.

Term: House ---- Integral components: foundation, roof, walls, windows, floors, etc.

Term: faith ---- Integral components: belief, obedience to Christ, trust, endurance, repentance, water baptism, etc.

That harmonizes the Biblical record instead of pitting it against itself. And you will have to find a way to harmonize it--or it will remain a record and testimony you pit against it's own self.

Matthew 4:4--King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Salvation is a gift from God.

No one is arguing that either. Only that we are judged in accordance with what we do with those gifts:


Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Christian]

berrie posted:
No one is arguing that either. Only that we are judged in accordance with what we do with those gifts:

And this has to do with the OP. . .HOW?

Please stay on track.