Walter Martin and faith alone theology

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.

"Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Just go check out the link to the topic I started that deal with the difference between being saved by grace though faith and not by works, and the phrase "Without works"

thats the answer

That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.

I have correctly posted what Walter Martin taught because I have posted recordings where you can learn for yourself what he taught.

as far as anyone else and how that compares?..I dont know or I dont care.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.

I defined the term here:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

How did Walter Martin's theology differ from that?

[alanmolstad]

Listen to the recordings I have posted!

Hear what Walter taught for yourself.

why ask me when I gave you the link to his teaching?


Walter Martin says very clearly we are not saved by faith....not saved by works...and not saved by any combination of them.

Walter Martin has very clearly said we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.


so anyone that teaches that we are saved by faith is?....... is in error, or is making use of poorly chosen wording.

What I have found is a lot of people say we are saved by faith alone, but then when you talk to them they turn out to mean saved by grace though faith and not by works anyway...so no big deal.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

excluding all "works".[/COLOR][/B]

and remember the words above mean we are not saved 'by" works,

It does not mean we have no works....for faith without works is dead.

This is why all Christians have works,,,but we teach that we are not save by them thats all...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and remember the words above mean we are not saved 'by" works,

It does not mean we have no works..

It means salvation is obtained without any works.

So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It means salvation is obtained without any works.

So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

LOL.........




you made me laugh!



I like how you stop quoting the Bible story the moment you get the to the part that TOTALLY DESTROYS YOUR POINT!!!!


Tell you what...you can get back to me when you figure out how to quote the rest of the story,......

Until then, Im just going to copy/paste your last post to a few of my church friends on Facebook.

Its text book example of what i was talking to them about the other day.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post It means salvation is obtained without any works.

So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

LOL.........you made me laugh!

I like how you stop quoting the Bible story the moment you get the to the part that TOTALLY DESTROYS YOUR POINT!!!!

It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

I noticed you did not engage any of the points:

How does a theology of a salvation through a faith without any works differ from Walter Martin's theology?

How does a theology which maintains one obtains salvation through a salvation without any works differ from the Savior's testimony?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

:

NOPE!



You stopped a bit short to get to the Lord's point.


For the Lord's point is right there after where you stopped.
The Lord's point is that keeping the law is no help at all !



Had you kept quoting the text at that point you would show this.
But as you quoted only half of the story you fail to show the Lord's point......but you do make my point to my friends , in that you clearly show you dont dare quote that story completely as it totally undercuts your argument.

so my advice is for you to now go back and read the story again, and this time dont stop where you did, but keep going and you may just see something you did not know.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

NOPE!

I was thinking Jesus was the Savior:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You stopped a bit short to get to the Lord's point.

For the Lord's point is right there after where you stopped.

The Lord's point is that keeping the law is no help at all !

Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--which the Mosaic Law was not capable of.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation--without obeying the ten commandments?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

[alanmolstad]

nope...you still fail to keep quoting the story.

as long as you will fail to quote the rest of the story then there is really no point to your questions.






again, my advice is to return to the same story you quoted, but this time read the next part and see that Jesus is teaching that keeping the law is a moot point.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

NOPE!

I was thinking Jesus was the Savior:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--which the Mosaic Law was not capable of.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation--without obeying the ten commandments?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope...you still fail to keep quoting the story.

Jesus' story was eternal life is connected to keeping the commandments:

John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[alanmolstad]

you can get back to me when you learn to quote the rest of the story....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you can get back to me when you learn to quote the rest of the story....

This seems to be the whole story:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

How does one comport faith alone theology to the witness of the Biblical NT?

How does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

[alanmolstad]

until you find out how to quote the rest of the story,,,Im afraid there is no point in going farther with you.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

until you find out how to quote the rest of the story,,,Im afraid there is no point in going farther with you.

What falls short of going far enough--concerning the testimony of the Biblical text?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[alanmolstad]

see post # 80

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see post # 80

See Biblical scriptures you have not engaged:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[alanmolstad]

when you can learn to quote the rest of the story, just let me know.

But until then.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

when you can learn to quote the rest of the story, just let me know.

But until then.....

As of now---the Biblical scriptures go unanswered:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[alanmolstad]

see post number #72......#73......and ......#74

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see post number #72......#73......and ......#74

Please see Biblical scriptures you have not engaged:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[alanmolstad]

See post 89

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

See post 89

Care to address the scriptures?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Care to address the scriptures?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Does anyone care to engage the Biblical scriptures?