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Thread: Walter Martin and faith alone theology

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    ...

    3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

    ?
    I have dont this many, many times when I posted the recording of Dr Martin performing with a forment member of a CULT a debate that they put on.
    Dr Martin tells the person that there is but one 'work" that is needed, and that work is to "believe" in Jesus.

    So this means that the only work is to have faith in the one that God sent into the world.

    Dr Martin says that the Greek there in that verse leave no room for any other work.




    This fits in with the verses that teach that if righteousness came by the law then Christ died for nothing!
    This fits with the teaching that even after keeping all the law the man's whole life, he still was judged as lacking.
    So this brings us back to the Christian Theology on how men are saved. We are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
    this does not mean our faith is without works, for we are saved to bring forth good works. But it does teach that we are not saved via works.

    see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...out-works-quot for more info
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-20-2017 at 03:56 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?
    define your terms on this and you will see that in most cases, you have mixed up your use of terms

    see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...out-works-quot for more information on the difference between saying you are saved by grace though faith alone and "Not by works", and with a faith "without works",
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-20-2017 at 03:55 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  3. #53
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Maybe you could reveal that?
    I can lead a horse to water, but .....that's about all I can do in this case.


    I can point out recordings to the very words of Walter Martin so you can hear from his own lips what he believed.


    I can point out the things others might claim he wrote that he did not write.


    I can quote the verses that support all Christian Theology.



    I can show the references to help people understand what some people mean when they use the phrase "faith alone".



    I can start a topic where I show people that the words "Not by works" should not be mixed up with the words "without works".



    I can warn people that if they want to post comments on a Walter Martin-named forum, that they better correctly identify what Walter Martin did write and what he did not
    write.


    I can try very hard to make all my posted comments very clear and easy to understand....




    But in the end, I still just leading a horse to the water........
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I have dont this many, many times when I posted the recording of Dr Martin performing with a forment member of a CULT a debate that they put on.
    Dr Martin tells the person that there is but one 'work" that is needed, and that work is to "believe" in Jesus.
    That is the same thing faith alone theology preaches.

    What differentiates Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I can lead a horse to water, but .....that's about all I can do in this case.


    I can point out recordings to the very words of Walter Martin so you can hear from his own lips what he believed.


    I can point out the things others might claim he wrote that he did not write.


    I can quote the verses that support all Christian Theology.
    You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.

    I can show the references to help people understand what some people mean when they use the phrase "faith alone".
    "Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

    Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


    James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


    Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is the same thing faith alone theology preaches.

    What differentiates Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    There are two different type of "Justification" talked about in the bible.
    One by faith
    One by works.


    The verse in James is just pointing out this fact....as I have told you many times
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-20-2017 at 05:22 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.



    "Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

    Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


    James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


    Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?
    Just go check out the link to the topic I started that deal with the difference between being saved by grace though faith and not by works, and the phrase "Without works"


    thats the answer
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    so once again....we are saved by grace though faith and NOT BY WORKS





    So the works that are always with faith, dont save us.

    thus all Christians have faith with works, but that we are not saved because of the works, nor saved because of the faith or any mixing of faith and works.

    rather we are saved only by grace, though faith, and not by works.




    So you can say we are saved by grace though faith alone, because what you mean is that works do not save us at all.

    You are not saying that your faith has no works with it, for all Christians are saved to do good works....so our faith is never without works.




    There, that should be clear enough for anyone to catch!
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    There are two different type of "Justification" talked about in the bible.
    One by faith
    One by works.

    The verse in James is just pointing out this fact....as I have told you many times
    How does any of that differentiate Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.

    "Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

    Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

    James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Just go check out the link to the topic I started that deal with the difference between being saved by grace though faith and not by works, and the phrase "Without works"

    thats the answer
    That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

    Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    so once again....we are saved by grace though faith and NOT BY WORKS

    So the works that are always with faith, dont save us.

    thus all Christians have faith with works, but that we are not saved because of the works, nor saved because of the faith or any mixing of faith and works.

    rather we are saved only by grace, though faith, and not by works.
    But again--those are the same words someone of the faith alone theology would use.

    You still have not posted a single point which would distinguish Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology.

    Care to engage that point?

    2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

    Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?
    Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.

    I have correctly posted what Walter Martin taught because I have posted recordings where you can learn for yourself what he taught.

    as far as anyone else and how that compares?..I dont know or I dont care.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But again--those are the same words someone of the faith alone theology would use.

    .....
    I believe its the same words that someone brilliant would use.
    I believe them to be correct.
    They are the Christian Theology.

    I dont really care who else believes in them or not, for they are true.


    I also believe that they are more than enough to have answer your questions...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.
    I defined the term here:

    Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

    The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

    How did Walter Martin's theology differ from that?

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    Listen to the recordings I have posted!

    Hear what Walter taught for yourself.

    why ask me when I gave you the link to his teaching?


    Walter Martin says very clearly we are not saved by faith....not saved by works...and not saved by any combination of them.

    Walter Martin has very clearly said we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.


    so anyone that teaches that we are saved by faith is?....... is in error, or is making use of poorly chosen wording.

    What I have found is a lot of people say we are saved by faith alone, but then when you talk to them they turn out to mean saved by grace though faith and not by works anyway...so no big deal.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    excluding all "works".[/COLOR][/B]
    and remember the words above mean we are not saved 'by" works,

    It does not mean we have no works....for faith without works is dead.

    This is why all Christians have works,,,but we teach that we are not save by them thats all...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    and remember the words above mean we are not saved 'by" works,

    It does not mean we have no works..
    It means salvation is obtained without any works.

    So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

    This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It means salvation is obtained without any works.

    So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

    This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    LOL.........




    you made me laugh!



    I like how you stop quoting the Bible story the moment you get the to the part that TOTALLY DESTROYS YOUR POINT!!!!


    Tell you what...you can get back to me when you figure out how to quote the rest of the story,......

    Until then, Im just going to copy/paste your last post to a few of my church friends on Facebook.

    Its text book example of what i was talking to them about the other day.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post It means salvation is obtained without any works.

    So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

    This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    LOL.........you made me laugh!

    I like how you stop quoting the Bible story the moment you get the to the part that TOTALLY DESTROYS YOUR POINT!!!!
    It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

    I noticed you did not engage any of the points:

    How does a theology of a salvation through a faith without any works differ from Walter Martin's theology?

    How does a theology which maintains one obtains salvation through a salvation without any works differ from the Savior's testimony?

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

    :

    NOPE!



    You stopped a bit short to get to the Lord's point.


    For the Lord's point is right there after where you stopped.
    The Lord's point is that keeping the law is no help at all !



    Had you kept quoting the text at that point you would show this.
    But as you quoted only half of the story you fail to show the Lord's point......but you do make my point to my friends , in that you clearly show you dont dare quote that story completely as it totally undercuts your argument.

    so my advice is for you to now go back and read the story again, and this time dont stop where you did, but keep going and you may just see something you did not know.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    "The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"


    The only answer Jesus can give (if salvation is reached via works) would be "Nothing"

    Go read it for yourself.
    Jesus said if you want to have life, do the commandments.
    Jesus did not say, "Do the commandments, and then do some other stuff!"

    Jesus was very clear in the first part of his answer that keeping the commandments gave life, case-closed!

    So if Jesus was serious, then if you did keep the commandments just as Jesus said, then Jesus only had one answer."You lack Nothing"

    That is the only answer that Jesus would be allowed to give if Jesus was serious in his answer that keeping the Commandments would bring life.

    But thats not the "POINT" that Jesus is getting to.



    For the end of the story the man learns that his life spent in keeping the very same laws that Jesus had pointed to had gained him....
    Nothing!

    So once again, the keeping of the laws that Jesus pointed to at the start of the answer he gave (The part you quoted but stopped after) is then later shown to be pointless in the 2nd part of the answer Jesus gave.


    and this agrees with the Scripture where it says "Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."




    This means -
    "No one that relies on the law" = (that's the first part of the answer Jesus gave, and the part you quote)
    " is justified before God" = (is saved)


    This is why the man who had kept the law his whole life later walks away sad, for he now knew that all his life spent in keeping the law was meaningless....it did not count...it meant nothing.


    "because "the righteous will live by faith." = (this agrees with Walter Martin, for we are saved by grace thought FAITH!, and not by works)


    see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...21&version=NIV to support all this by the way...




    If keeping the works of the Law gave life, then Jesus died for nothing!
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-21-2017 at 04:29 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    and this is why we read later that a guy walks up to Jesus and asks in the light of the above story , what are the "works' that God requires?


    Its a ghood question to ask if you had now seen that a life spent in keeping the works of the Law were of no value?

    The answer Jesus gives is that we are to have faith in the Lord Jesus.


    Jesus is very clear in his answer, there is only one work, and that is to believe in him....

    It is "thee work"......in the Greek its clearly saying there is only "one" work required.




    and thats to believe.



    To have faith....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    and this is why we read later that a guy walks up to Jesus and asks in the light of the above story , what are the "works' that God requires?


    Its a good question for a Mormon to ask too, if you had now seen that a life spent in keeping the works of the Law is of no value?

    The answer Jesus gives is that we are to have faith in the Lord Jesus.


    Jesus is very clear in his answer, there is only one work, and that is to believe in him....

    It is "thee work"......in the Greek its clearly saying there is only "one" work required.




    and thats to believe.



    To have faith....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    NOPE!
    I was thinking Jesus was the Savior:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    You stopped a bit short to get to the Lord's point.

    For the Lord's point is right there after where you stopped.

    The Lord's point is that keeping the law is no help at all !
    Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--which the Mosaic Law was not capable of.

    Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation--without obeying the ten commandments?

    1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

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