The FIRST LDS Apologist (Part 1)

[John T]

Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, better known by his pen name, Lewis Carroll, was an English writer, mathematician, logician, Anglican deacon and photographer. (from Wikipedia) but there are few who know that know that he also was an apologist for many cults, including the Mormons.

I state that because if anyone carefully reads this quote, you will see so many parallels to the apologetics which the members of the cults use to "defend" their cult. Those skilled in rhetoric will see the plethora of logical errors which the victims of the cult use.

Bold text is from the site I used, not added


from http://sabian.org/looking_gl***6.php
.

'Don't stand chattering to yourself like that,' Humpty Dumpty said, looking at her for the first time, 'but tell me your name and your business.'
'My name is Alice, but —'

'It's a stupid name enough!' Humpty Dumpty interrupted impatiently. 'What does it mean?'
'Must a name mean something?' Alice asked doubtfully.

'Of course it must,' Humpty Dumpty said with a short laugh: 'my name means the shape I am — and a good handsome shape it is, too. With a name like yours, you might be any shape, almost.'

'Why do you sit out here all alone?' said Alice, not wishing to begin an argument.

'Why, because there's nobody with me!' cried Humpty Dumpty. 'Did you think I didn't know the answer to that? Ask another.'

'Don't you think you'd be safer down on the ground?' Alice went on, not with any idea of making another riddle, but simply in her good-natured anxiety for the ***** creature. 'That wall is so very narrow!'

'What tremendously easy riddles you ask!' Humpty Dumpty growled out. 'Of course I don't think so! Why, if ever I did fall off — which there's no chance of — but if I did —' Here he pursed up his lips, and looked so solemn and grand that Alice could hardly help laughing. 'If I did fall,' he went on, 'the King has promised me — ah, you may turn pale, if you like! You didn't think I was going to say that, did you? The King has promised me — with his very own mouth — to — to —'

'To send all his horses and all his men,' Alice interrupted, rather unwisely.

'Now I declare that's too bad!' Humpty Dumpty cried, breaking into a sudden p***ion. 'You've been listening at doors — and behind trees — and down chimneys — or you couldn't have known it!'

'I haven't indeed!' Alice said very gently. 'It's in a book.'

'Ah, well! They may write such things in a book,' Humpty Dumpty said in a calmer tone. 'That's what you call a History of England, that is. Now, take a good look at me! I'm one that has spoken to a King,

<SNIP>

'In that case we start afresh,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'and it's my turn to choose a subject —' ('He talks about it just as if it was a game!' thought Alice.) 'So here's a question for you. How old did you say you were?'

Alice made a short calculation, and said 'Seven years and six months.'

'Wrong!' Humpty Dumpty exclaimed triumphantly. 'You never said a word like it!'

'I thought you meant "How old are you?"' Alice explained.

'If I'd meant that, I'd have said it,' said Humpty Dumpty.

Alice didn't want to begin another argument, so she said nothing.

'Seven years and six months!' Humpty Dumpty repeated thoughtfully. 'An uncomfortable sort of age. Now if you'd asked my advice, I'd have said "Leave off at seven" — but it's too late now.'

'I never ask advice about growing,' Alice said indignantly.

'Too proud?' the other enquired.

Alice felt even more indignant at this suggestion. 'I mean,' she said, 'that one ca'n't help growing older.'
<SNIP>

'They gave it me,' Humpty Dumpty continued thoughtfully as he crossed one knee over the other and clasped his hands round it, 'they gave it me — for an un-birthday present.'

'I beg your pardon?' Alice said with a puzzled air.

'I'm not offended,' said Humpty Dumpty.

'I mean, what is an un-birthday present?'

'A present given when it isn't your birthday, of course.'

Alice considered a little. 'I like birthday presents best,' she said at last.

'You don't know what you're talking about!' cried Humpty Dumpty. 'How many days are there in a year?'

'Three hundred and sixty-five,' said Alice.

'And how many birthdays have you?'

'One.'

'And if you take one from three hundred and sixty-five what remains?'

'Three hundred and sixty-four, of course.'

Humpty Dumpty looked doubtful. 'I'd rather see that done on paper,' he said.

Alice couldn't help smiling as she took out her memorandum book, and worked the sum for him:

Humpty Dumpty took the book and looked at it carefully. 'That seems to be done right —' he began.

'You're holding it upside down!' Alice interrupted.

'And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"
'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

'Would you tell me please,' said Alice, 'what that means?'

'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

'That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

'When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'I always pay it extra.'

'Oh!' said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other remark.

'Ah, you should see 'em come round me of a Sa****ay night,' Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to side, 'for to get their wages, you know.'

[John T]

(Alice didn't venture to ask what he paid them with; and so you see I can't tell you.)

You seem very clever at explaining words, Sir,' said Alice. 'Would you kindly tell me the meaning of the poem called "Jabberwocky"?'

'Let's hear it,' said Humpty Dumpty. 'I can explain all the poems that ever were invented — and a good many that haven't been invented just yet.'

This sounded very hopeful, so Alice repeated the first verse:
'

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.'

'That's enough to begin with,' Humpty Dumpty interrupted: 'there are plenty of hard words there. "Brillig" means four o'clock in the afternoon — the time when you begin broiling things for dinner.'

'That'll do very well,' said Alice: 'and "slithy"?'

'Well, "slithy" means "lithe and slimy". "Lithe" is the same as "active". You see it's like a portmanteau — there are two meanings packed up into one word.'

'I see it now,' Alice remarked thoughtfully: 'and what are "toves"?'

'Well, "toves" are something like badgers — they're something like lizards — and they're something like corkscrews.'

.
How many logical errors did you catch? How similar to the apologetic methodology of the LDS cults are these ?

So whenever they use their insipid charge of "anti-mormon" it is my opinion that it is not wrong to call them Humpty Dumptys or some similar accurate name. On another site, a poster calls them "anti-grace" because they are totally opposed to unmerited grace from as just, righteous and Holy God.

These insights of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson are funny, and we recognize that the thoughts are simply post modern relativism. "Your truth" "My truth" and there is nothing that is objective propositional truth.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by John T

Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, better known by his pen name, Lewis Carroll, was an English writer, mathematician, logician, Anglican deacon and photographer. (from Wikipedia) but there are few who know that know that he also was an apologist for many cults, including the Mormons.

I state that because if anyone carefully reads this quote, you will see so many parallels to the apologetics which the members of the cults use to "defend" their cult. Those skilled in rhetoric will see the plethora of logical errors which the victims of the cult use.

John--your point here is the usual run-to whenever the faith alone get burned with the Biblical scriptures. Care to address the many posts here with the Biblical scriptures that defy faith alone theology?

I'll give you a start:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[John T]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

John--your point here is the usual run-to whenever the faith alone get burned with the Biblical scriptures. Care to address the many posts here with the Biblical scriptures that defy faith alone theology?

I'll give you a start:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Derail attempt noted and ignored

[alanmolstad]

I have some puppies that are up for adoption....



Im just saying.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---John--your point here is the usual run-to whenever the faith alone get burned with the Biblical scriptures. Care to address the many posts here with the Biblical scriptures that defy faith alone theology?

I'll give you a start:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Originally Posted by John T

Derail attempt noted and ignored

I believe that is my point--whenever the Biblical scriptures are posted that defy the faith alone theology--it is ignored:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[John T]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe that is my point--whenever the Biblical scriptures are posted that defy the faith alone theology--it is ignored:

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

My point is that I MADE THE OP, and YOU ARE DERAILING IT!

I do not give you permission to derail what I thought about.

START YOUR OWN OP!

How b****!

[alanmolstad]

I like beer......

(not to interrupt )

[dberrie2000]

John--your point here is the usual run-to whenever the faith alone get burned with the Biblical scriptures. Care to address the many posts here with the Biblical scriptures that defy faith alone theology?

I'll give you a start:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Bump for John T

[John T]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

John--your point here is the usual run-to whenever the faith alone get burned with the Biblical scriptures. Care to address the many posts here with the Biblical scriptures that defy faith alone theology?

I'll give you a start:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Bump for John T

[Christian]

Originally Posted by John T

I LIKE your beating a dead horse icon, where may I find it so I can use it too?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
John--your point here is the usual run-to whenever the faith alone get burned with the Biblical scriptures. Care to address the many posts here with the Biblical scriptures that defy faith alone theology?

I'll give you a start:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Originally Posted by John T

That seems to be the usual retort whenever Biblical scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

[theway]

Originally Posted by John T

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.'

Yeah, just like I said... Boring!

[alanmolstad]

I like the dead horse thingy.....

But other than that?........

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I like the dead horse thingy.....

But other than that?........

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Is anyone going to address the scriptures?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Is anyone going to address the scriptures?

You mean would informing you one more time of the FACT that there are TWO DIFFERENT TYPES of justification spoken about in the Bible be something Im interesting in doing again?.......not really,

Why not Alan?

Because, You can lead a horse to water.....

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Is anyone going to address the scriptures?

Hi DB,
I really don't think you understand what James means. Repeatedly, scripture tells us that justification is not by works, either before or after a person has come into the experience of grace. For example ***us 3:5 states: ‘He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.’ Paul states that works are not the basis for our salvation, grace empowered or otherwise. Why is this so? Because Christ has done all the work necessary for justification.

James addresses the issue of dead faith, as opposed to living, saving faith. Dead faith is ‘faith’ that makes a profession but it has no effect on the life, what many call today, easy–believism, or intellectual ***ent. Dead faith produces no fruit, no accompanying works to testify to the reality of the professed faith. So while Paul deals with the issue of legalism as it relates to justification, James deals with the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God as it relates to faith.
The key phrase in James 2 is ‘show me your faith’ (Js. 2:18). The only way true saving faith is demonstrated is through works. ‘Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works’ (Js. 2:18). True saving faith will always be demonstrated or accompanied by works of love and holiness. According to Romans 4:2 Abraham was justified by faith apart from works. Justification is an eternal declaration of God which happens the moment an individual is united to Christ. It is not a process dependent upon the works of an individual but an instantaneous act of God.

Grace is the means by which everything necessary for man to receive forgiveness and eternal acceptance has been provided as a gift by God through the work of his Son. It is not a work achieved or merited by man in any way. It is accomplished by Christ alone. It is his righteousness, not man’s. Therefore from a biblical standpoint, grace alone means by Christ alone, received by faith alone and not by works. As Paul puts it:
“If it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6).
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law” (Rom. 3:28).

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,
I really don't think you understand what James means. Repeatedly, scripture tells us that justification is not by works, either before or after a person has come into the experience of grace. For example ***us 3:5 states: ‘He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.’ Paul states that works are not the basis for our salvation, grace empowered or otherwise. Why is this so? Because Christ has done all the work necessary for justification.

James addresses the issue of dead faith, as opposed to living, saving faith. Dead faith is ‘faith’ that makes a profession but it has no effect on the life, what many call today, easy–believism, or intellectual ***ent. Dead faith produces no fruit, no accompanying works to testify to the reality of the professed faith. So while Paul deals with the issue of legalism as it relates to justification, James deals with the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God as it relates to faith.
The key phrase in James 2 is ‘show me your faith’ (Js. 2:18). The only way true saving faith is demonstrated is through works. ‘Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works’ (Js. 2:18). True saving faith will always be demonstrated or accompanied by works of love and holiness. According to Romans 4:2 Abraham was justified by faith apart from works. Justification is an eternal declaration of God which happens the moment an individual is united to Christ. It is not a process dependent upon the works of an individual but an instantaneous act of God.

Grace is the means by which everything necessary for man to receive forgiveness and eternal acceptance has been provided as a gift by God through the work of his Son. It is not a work achieved or merited by man in any way. It is accomplished by Christ alone. It is his righteousness, not man’s. Therefore from a biblical standpoint, grace alone means by Christ alone, received by faith alone and not by works. As Paul puts it:
“If it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6).
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law” (Rom. 3:28).

And as a faith Aloner, this is what makes your explanation meaningless and contradictory.
Because to a true Faith Aloner, works of any kind can not demonstrate anything!

In other words, what will it demonstrate if a person claims to be saved and yet in a moment of weakness commits 2 murders and 1 rape?
What does it demonstrate if a person claims to be saved yet in a moment of weakness steals a 2 cent pencil from their ***?

[John T]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,
I really don't think you understand what James means. Repeatedly, scripture tells us that justification is not by works, either before or after a person has come into the experience of grace. For example ***us 3:5 states: ‘He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.’ Paul states that works are not the basis for our salvation, grace empowered or otherwise. Why is this so? Because Christ has done all the work necessary for justification.

James addresses the issue of dead faith, as opposed to living, saving faith. Dead faith is ‘faith’ that makes a profession but it has no effect on the life, what many call today, easy–believism, or intellectual ***ent. Dead faith produces no fruit, no accompanying works to testify to the reality of the professed faith. So while Paul deals with the issue of legalism as it relates to justification, James deals with the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God as it relates to faith.
The key phrase in James 2 is ‘show me your faith’ (Js. 2:18). The only way true saving faith is demonstrated is through works. ‘Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works’ (Js. 2:18). True saving faith will always be demonstrated or accompanied by works of love and holiness. According to Romans 4:2 Abraham was justified by faith apart from works. Justification is an eternal declaration of God which happens the moment an individual is united to Christ. It is not a process dependent upon the works of an individual but an instantaneous act of God.

Grace is the means by which everything necessary for man to receive forgiveness and eternal acceptance has been provided as a gift by God through the work of his Son. It is not a work achieved or merited by man in any way. It is accomplished by Christ alone. It is his righteousness, not man’s. Therefore from a biblical standpoint, grace alone means by Christ alone, received by faith alone and not by works. As Paul puts it:
“If it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6).
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law” (Rom. 3:28).

PLEASE ADDRESS THE OP!

This poster is attempting to derail the discussion I began which is rude in itself. Now you are abetting that rudeness.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by John T

PLEASE ADDRESS THE OP!

This poster is attempting to derail the discussion I began which is rude in itself. Now you are abetting that rudeness.

Sorry John, you are right.

[John T]

Originally Posted by disciple

Sorry John, you are right.

Sorry if I appeared rude, but I was/am frustrated at the rudeness of the LDS people who try to derail, and prevent any discussion of our own topics.

What can one expect from people who follow the logic of Humpty Dumpty.

My point in the OP, and demonstrated by their responses here is that they want to make words mean whatever nonsense they make up. And by changing the meanings of words, such as Christian, grace, etc they want to control the dialog.

I do not particularly like Beck, but here is a part of what Saul Alinsky wrote, and you can how their deeds here fit into that paradigm HERE

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,
I really don't think you understand what James means. Repeatedly, scripture tells us that justification is not by works, either before or after a person has come into the experience of grace. For example ***us 3:5 states: ‘He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.’ Paul states that works are not the basis for our salvation, grace empowered or otherwise. Why is this so? Because Christ has done all the work necessary for justification.

James addresses the issue of dead faith, as opposed to living, saving faith. Dead faith is ‘faith’ that makes a profession but it has no effect on the life, what many call today, easy–believism, or intellectual ***ent. Dead faith produces no fruit, no accompanying works to testify to the reality of the professed faith.

That only connects faith and works in salvation. If it takes works to make it real faith--then the question begs to be asked--can one be saved through anything other than real faith?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That only connects faith and works in salvation. If it takes works to make it real faith--then the question begs to be asked--can one be saved through anything other than real faith?

all are saved by grace though faith...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

all are saved by grace though faith...

Is that grace through a faith with works--or a faith without works?(obedience to the gospel)

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[alanmolstad]

The bible says we are saved by grace though faith. ..and not by any works at all....

So your answer is this...to believe...that's all.

We are saved and forgiven when we believe in the Son that The Lord has sent.

All the works we might try to use or add to this are a moot point.....they don't count..they don't add to our salvation.

So what do all my works do?...tthe answer is they confirm my faith...