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Thread: Brigham young was apostate.

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    Default Brigham young was apostate.

    He walked away from the church joseph smith made and went west to establish his own fifedom. BY DEFINITION he apostasized.

    Joseph Smith (the utah mormons admit) said joseph smith III (his son) would be the next president of HIS church, not bringum young.

    young was an apostate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    He walked away from the church joseph smith made and went west to establish his own fifedom. BY DEFINITION he apostasized.
    Your statement is objectively false. Brigham Young was chosen and sustained by the membership of the church to succeed Joseph Smith as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the same church that Joseph Smith organized in 1830. Young was not an apostate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    He walked away from the church joseph smith made and went west to establish his own fifedom. BY DEFINITION he apostasized.
    I'm always amazed at how little Critics of our Church actually know about our Church, the gospel, or the bible, yet they think they can come on here to school us.
    If you notice below the Twelve as a quorum are equal in authority to the Presidency of the Church. So when the President/Prophet dies or the Presidency is disolved, then the 12 Apostles instantly take over the Leadership of the Church, and they are then the ones to elect a new President when all 12 are present and in agreement.

    THE TWELVE CHOOSE BRIGHAM YOUNG!

    Any claim by anyone outside of that process which God revealed to Joseph Smith, are erroneous and they will become apostates if they persist in their claims

    D&C 107:22-24
    22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.
    23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
    24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Joseph Smith (the utah mormons admit) said joseph smith III (his son) would be the next president of HIS church, not bringum young.

    young was an apostate.
    The "Utah Mormons" said no such thing, you really need to stop getting your information from AntiMormon sites.
    I think what you are referring to was a blessing by Joseph Smith jr. to his son Joseph Smith III.
    THIS WAS A PATRIARCAL BLESSING OR A FATHER'S BLESSING, IT WAS NOT AN ORDINATION!

    Anybody in the church knows that such blessings are dependent upon the person remaining worthy to receive it and the Will of the Lord. It kinda goes without saying that when Joseph Smith III took over control of an apostate group, then he was no longer worthy for the blessing given to him.

    FYI... there were at least three such blessings given to three different people by Joseph Smith. All of them apostatized and therefore forfeited any blessings given to them.
    Last edited by theway; 03-19-2015 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    Your statement is objectively false. Brigham Young was chosen and sustained by the membership of the church to succeed Joseph Smith as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the same church that Joseph Smith organized in 1830. Young was not an apostate.
    If he was NOT apostate, then why did he leave emma smith and joseph smith III whom YOUR FALSE PROPHET said God chose to be the next president of God's church? Do you think God lied? Or was it joey smith who lied? Or was it young who LEFT (the definition of 'apostasize') and went west?

    Of COURSE you claim young was not apostate. OF COURSE the rlds says otherwise. Smith versus smith. . .

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    Default Their god got it wrong!

    way posted:
    I'm always amazed at how little Critics of our Church actually know about our Church, the gospel, or the bible, yet they think they can come on here to school us.

    Yet we ALL seem to know more about the Bible and the Gospel the first century church preached than any of you do.

    If you notice below the Twelve as a quorum are equal in authority to the Presidency of the Church. So when the President/Prophet dies or the Presidency is disolved, then the 12 Apostles instantly take over the Leadership of the Church, and they are then the ones to elect a new President when all 12 are present and in agreement.

    THE TWELVE CHOOSE BRIGHAM YOUNG!

    So young won the popularity contest, so what? According to GOD joseph smith III was to be the next president of GOD'S church (at least your false prophet SAID SO).

    So which lied (according to your theory)? God or joey smith II?



    Something like 7 years ago the utah mormons acknowledged the truth about it and returned the document to the rlds. Google it if you doubt me.

    The "Utah Mormons" said no such thing, you really need to stop getting your information from AntiMormon sites.

    I don't get my information from anti-mormon sites. The above TRUTH was reported by National Public Radio, NBC, ABC and others, a few years back.

    I think what you are referring to was a blessing by Joseph Smith jr. to his son Joseph Smith III.
    THIS WAS A PATRIARCAL BLESSING OR A FATHER'S BLESSING, IT WAS NOT AN ORDINATION!

    I never said it was an ordination. I said smith said GOD TOLD HIM it would happen. So who do you think lied, smith or God?

    Anybody in the church knows that such blessings are dependent upon the person remaining worthy to receive it and the Will of the Lord. It kinda goes without saying that when Joseph Smith III took over control of an apostate group, then he was no longer worthy for the blessing given to him.

    FYI... there were at least three such blessings given to three different people by Joseph Smith. All of them apostatized and therefore forfeited any blessings given to them.

    yah, yah, yah, so God musta got it wrong, huh? Your little god didn't KNOW what those folks were going to do, huh? So your god made promises he couldn't keep, because those guys were all 'unworthy'

    And bringum young was more 'worthy' as evidenced by his poligamy and apostasizing. . .?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    If he was NOT apostate, then why did he leave emma smith and joseph smith III whom YOUR FALSE PROPHET said God chose to be the next president of God's church?
    I don't have a false prophet.

    Or was it young who LEFT (the definition of 'apostasize') and went west?
    That's not what "apostatize" means.

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    What does "apostatize" mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Of COURSE you claim young was not apostate. OF COURSE the rlds says otherwise. Smith versus smith. . .
    Yes? So what? You think such a thing (one of them being right, the other wrong) is impossible?
    People can be wrong, even if they have Smith, Jones, or Martin as their last name.

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    Default Mormon false prophet versus Mormon false prophet, both named smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Yes? So what? You think such a thing (one of them being right, the other wrong) is impossible?
    People can be wrong, even if they have Smith, Jones, or Martin as their last name.
    You still have offered ZERO reasons to believe young was not apostate when he left emma smith and joseph smith III whom YOUR FALSE PROPHET said God chose to be the next president of God's church? Do you think God lied? Or was it joey smith who lied? Or was it young who LEFT (the definition of 'apostasize') and went west?

    Of COURSE you claim young was not apostate. OF COURSE the rlds says otherwise. Smith versus smith. . .false prophet versus false prophet.

    A house divided against itself cannot stand.

    The mormon religion is slowly sinking. . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000ff]You still have offered ZERO reasons to believe young was not apostate when he left emma smith
    Emma Smith was traumatized and declined to go along with the church on its exodus to the West--which Joseph had seen the TRUE church doing in a vision--and her son ended up joining the splinter church after it offered him the ***le of "president" as a bribe. A majority of the apostles appointed Young as the 2nd president of the LDS church, based on revelation and on Joseph's teaching that the apostles choose successors from among worthy candidates. JS 3 wasn't a worthy candidate at the time a successor was needed. He was just a kid.

    Do you think God lied?
    no but I think anti-Mormons sometimes do.

    Or was it joey smith who lied?
    no but I think anti-Mormons sometimes do.

    Or was it young who LEFT (the definition of 'apostasize') and went west?
    "Apostasia" is a Greek word meaning "to REBEL." It connotes revolution against the parent organization.

    Of COURSE you claim young was not apostate.
    If you already know my answers, why pretend to ask questions such as "Do you think God lied?" ?

    OF COURSE the rlds says otherwise. Smith versus smith. . .false prophet versus false prophet.
    A house divided against itself cannot stand.
    Using that pathetic logic, both Protestantism and Catholocism are demonic churches of the devil, since they had major arguments over the direction Christianity should go, one of them (Protestantism) rebelled and broke off from the parent church, started its own churches, and continued to grow further apart. False church versus false church means that both are false, according to you pathetic logic.

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    way posted:
    I'm going to try this one more time for the sake of Lurkers, as it appears you do not have the capacity to understand such a simple concept.
    A Father's blessing is just that, a Fathers blessing! A Father blessing is not what determines who will be the next President of the Church, or who will lead the Church.

    So UNLIKE the blessings GOD gave through the BIBLICAL fathers, YOUR fathers tell lies when they give blessings to their children? IS YOUR god THAT 'different' from the God of the Bible, in that YOUR god tells lies?

    That process was revealed to Joseph Smith long before His death as I have already shown you.

    WHERE did you ever 'show' me that? What does it matter? Joey smith never recanted it. HE never said that either he or God had lied.

    At the death or retirement of the Prophet who is President, The Twelve as a quorum immediately take over leadership and the Keys to run the Lord's Church. It is then up to them and the Will of the Lord, to elect a new president when they are all convened together.

    Leadership by popular vote, huh? Fatherly revelations from God don't matter, the TRUTH is that joey smith (your 'prophet') said God revealed joey smith III would be the next president of THAT church. And he was. The priesthood of the BIBLE was p***ed on FROM FATHER TO SON, not by popular vote.

    That new President then chooses two Counslers and takes over the Keys to run the Church.
    At the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith and Hyrum, The Twelve are in charge. They almost always choose the most Senior member of the Twelve. However it doesn't matter who is called since every one of the Twelve and the two Counsels have already been called as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, so they are all equally qualified to be the President. However they still get together to ask the Lord for direction.

    Either bringum young or joey smith made up a pretty 'nifty' way to do their stuff, didn't they? Of course NOTHING FROM GOD is in it; it is just 'buddies' voting on each other to pick one to be 'prez.' NOTHING the CHRISTIANS ever did in the NT church, of course.

    <snipped> the rest of the worthless drivel. . .

    You really are not very good at this AntiMormon thing are you? As such, keep up your work, it only helps us.

    I am not an 'antimormon' at all. I am simply CHRISTIAN. Mormons (back in the 70's when I first became a CHRISTIAN) refused to be CALLED 'Christians.' They would honestly tell you that they were NOT Christians; they were MORMONS.

    Now they seem to want to be accepted into mainstream Christianity, so they have (as cults frequently do) changed their tune.

  12. #12
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    Don't listen to theway. All he does is insult people and post negative comments.

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    No more insults or condescending comments, guys--and do not bring arguments from other boards here. Thanks!
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

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    Default their god 'musta got it wrong. . .'

    phoenix posted:

    You still have offered ZERO reasons to believe young was not apostate when he left emma smith
    Emma Smith was traumatized and declined to go along with the church on its exodus to the West--which Joseph had seen the TRUE church doing in a vision--and her son ended up joining the splinter church after it offered him the ***le of "president" as a bribe.

    Bribe? Let's see now. . .wasn't her son an INFANT when bringum young went west? Wasn't her son brought up to be the next president of the church joey smith had built as joey smith II's god had TOLD HIM would happen?

    A majority of the apostles appointed Young as the 2nd president of the LDS church, based on revelation and on Joseph's teaching that the apostles choose successors from among worthy candidates. JS 3 wasn't a worthy candidate at the time a successor was needed. He was just a kid.

    So your god musta got it wrong when he told joey smith II that HIS SON would be the next president of HIS church, huh?

    "Apostasia" is a Greek word meaning "to REBEL." It connotes revolution against the parent organization.

    No, it does not. It simply means
    * apostasia, apostasias, hee
    a falling away, defection, apostasy
    (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright 2000, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


    apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    Literally a 'falling away', or a 'DEFECTION.' You have to 'read into it' anything about 'REBELLION,' although bringum young DID rebel against smith's church AND his supposed reveleation from your god that joe smith III would be the next president of HIS church.

    If you already know my answers, why pretend to ask questions such as "Do you think God lied?" ?



    Using that pathetic logic, both Protestantism and Catholocism are demonic churches of the devil, since they had major arguments over the direction Christianity should go, one of them (Protestantism) rebelled and broke off from the parent church, started its own churches, and continued to grow further apart. False church versus false church means that both are false, according to you pathetic logic.[/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    No more insults or condescending comments, guys--and do not bring arguments from other boards here. Thanks!

    Hey Jill,

    I'm sorry, but the subject matter here is the same as on the other boards, Christianity versus mormonism. How can we avoid using the same TRUTHS to debunk the false teachings of mormonism that exist on the boards and off? I'm sorry, but I think the same 'arguments' hold TRUE no matter where they are posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KruAthApoloRelia View Post
    You misunderstand. Jill isn't saying you can't use truths and arguments you've made at other boards here. She's saying don't bring problems that you've had at places like CARM and bring them here. For example, a poster here has recently started spamming this board with things that she claims other posters here have done at CARM to break the rules or who have been banned from CARM. Those are the things Jill has asked not to bring up over here. So it is a bit ironic that this poster chose to break the rules of WM in order to lambast the Mormons as dishonest rule breakers for their actions at CARM.

    I cannot be responsible for the actions of others. I will simply continue to point at SCRIPTURE that contradicts the heretical teachings of mormonism and other such cults. I don't ''bring that from CARM." It originates here. As far as I know, there should be no problem with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Bribe?
    Yup. That should become apparent to you as you dig yourself further into the hole you have begun...

    Let's see now. . .wasn't her son an INFANT when bringum young went west?
    Yes. That's why he wasn't even eligible to take over after the contra-LDS murdered his dad.

    [QUOTE]Wasn't her son brought up to be the next president of the church joey smith had built as joey smith II's god had TOLD HIM would happen?[/COLOR]
    He didn't want anything to do with it, and continued to want nothing to do with the church as he grew up. Then the RLDS, thinking they needed an actual Smith as their president, asked him to be THEIR president. At first he refused, but when they made the offer tempting enough, he accepted it.

    And now the reference to a bribe should be obvious to you.

    No, it does not. It simply means...a falling away, defection,.. You have to 'read into it' anything about 'REBELLION,'...
    So you're accusing the dictionary of reading into it?

    "Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion."
    wikipedia dictionary

    "Origin of APOSTASY
    Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt
    merriam-webster.com



    Catching less and less fish.....

  18. #18
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    KruAthApoloRelia
    I have been telling people not to bring up old CARM stuff here for years.

    it does not matter...the truth is, that the people that get banned from CARM come here to continue the same arguments that they got banned there for.
    So telling them not to pick old CARM fights here is pointless, because that is what they came here to do in the first place.

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    Default The Apostate young. . .

    Phoenix posted:
    Bribe?
    up. That should become apparent to you as you dig yourself further into the hole you have begun...

    What is apparent is YOUR vested interest in trying to 'prove' joseph smith II to be wrong, and the apostate young right! So far you have failed to do so.

    Yes. That's why he wasn't even eligible to take over after the contra-LDS murdered his dad.

    'contra-lds?' You mean the heathen town folks, huh?

    Wasn't her son brought up to be the next president of the church joey smith had built as joey smith II's god had TOLD HIM would happen?


    He didn't want anything to do with it, and continued to want nothing to do with the church as he grew up.

    'it' being brigham young's group. . .

    Then the RLDS, thinking they needed an actual Smith as their president, asked him to be THEIR president. At first he refused, but when they made the offer tempting enough, he accepted it.

    You mean when they 'called' him to be their president.

    And YOUR 'presidents' are elected by popularity contest, right?


    And now the reference to a bribe should be obvious to you.

    No, it does not. It simply means...a falling away, defection,.. You have to 'read into it' anything about 'REBELLION,'...
    So you're accusing the dictionary of reading into it?

    "Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion."
    wikipedia dictionary

    "Origin of APOSTASY
    Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt
    merriam-webster.com

    NT:646
    apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:


    KJV - falling away, forsake.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    You are trying to use an ENGLISH WORD instead of the GREEK TERM used in the BIBLE.


    It doesn't matter much though. Young left, fell away, forsook the church joseph smith built, and went west. Kind of like satan when HE fell away from God taking a third of the angels with him And like satan, young was apostate, no matter HOW popular he was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    You are trying to use an ENGLISH WORD instead of the GREEK TERM used in the BIBLE.
    What part of

    "from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt"

    did you not understand?

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