The Gift

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View Post What do you mean by GRACE? Your question is not understandable
Grace is not eternal life. Eternal life comes BY grace through faith, not of works.

That's still grace.

So--is the remission of sins God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is only the saved that will obey Christ.

If the scriptures are true--then it's only those who obey Christ which will be saved:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The lost do not obey Christ.

That's the reason they are lost.

Therefore, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Salvation comes first then those that are saved are the ones that obey.

That's not the sequence of the scripture. It has eternal life going to them which obey:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Anyone? Surely--there are those who would like to discuss the Biblical scriptures themselves?

[Saxon]

That's still grace.

So--is the remission of sins God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No, the “remission” of sins is not grace. The remission of sins is accomplished by the grace of God through faith. (See Ephesians 2:8) God does the saving because God has an at***ude of grace toward mankind. God, by his grace, saves us because we have faith in Christ. Your comment says nothing about what grace is and your quote says nothing about grace or what grace is. Salvation is a gift and does not require works of any kind.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If the scriptures are true--then it's only those who obey Christ which will be saved:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

No, the lost do not obey Christ. They are lost because they do not believe. It is nothing to do with obeying Christ. The only ones that do obey Christ are those that are saved. The saved obey Christ. Your twisting of the scriptures is of no avail to you and your gross misinterpretation of scripture. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9, are clearly describing the fate of those that are lost and do not obey Christ. Obedience will only come from the saved. Salvation is by grace, not works of any kind.

That's the reason they are lost.

That is not so, the reason that anyone is lost is that they do not believe.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That's not the sequence of the scripture. It has eternal life going to them which obey:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Anyone? Surely--there are those who would like to discuss the Biblical scriptures themselves?

To believe what you are stating you must totally ignore the scripture that I have quoted in this post. But being a Mormon and not really believing the Bible to be true, that is no problem for you.

Ask yourself, who is it that obeys Christ? The only answer that is true is the saved. The lost will not obey what is obviously foolishness to them.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

No, the “remission” of sins is not grace. The remission of sins is accomplished by the grace of God through faith. (See Ephesians 2:8) God does the saving because God has an at***ude of grace toward mankind. God, by his grace, saves us because we have faith in Christ. Your comment says nothing about what grace is and your quote says nothing about grace or what grace is. Salvation is a gift and does not require works of any kind.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.





No, the lost do not obey Christ. They are lost because they do not believe. It is nothing to do with obeying Christ. The only ones that do obey Christ are those that are saved. The saved obey Christ. Your twisting of the scriptures is of no avail to you and your gross misinterpretation of scripture. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9, are clearly describing the fate of those that are lost and do not obey Christ. Obedience will only come from the saved. Salvation is by grace, not works of any kind.





That is not so, the reason that anyone is lost is that they do not believe.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.





To believe what you are stating you must totally ignore the scripture that I have quoted in this post. But being a Mormon and not really believing the Bible to be true, that is no problem for you.

Ask yourself, who is it that obeys Christ? The only answer that is true is the saved. The lost will not obey what is obviously foolishness to them.

One of the best posts I have read on the Forum in a long, long time!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's still grace.

So--is the remission of sins God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If the scriptures are true--then it's only those who obey Christ which will be saved:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

That's the reason they are lost.

That's not the sequence of the scripture. It has eternal life going to them which obey:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Anyone? Surely--there are those who would like to discuss the Biblical scriptures themselves?

Originally Posted by Saxon

No, the “remission” of sins is not grace. The remission of sins is accomplished by the grace of God through faith.

Hi Saxon:

So--the remission of sins is not grace--but accomplished by grace. As we say in the South--that dog just ain't gonna hunt.

IMO--there is one point that is certain--repentance and water baptism for God's grace of the remission of sins defies faith alone theology.

Acts2:38 is what one will find in the LDS church, though.

Your comment says nothing about what grace is and your quote says nothing about grace or what grace is.

In the LDS church--the remission of sins is God's grace. And the scripture specifically spells it out:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Salvation is a gift and does not require works of any kind.

You might want to relate that to the Savior:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

No, the lost do not obey Christ.

That's the reason they are lost:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The scriptures connect obedience and eternal life.

It is nothing to do with obeying Christ.

Then to whom do you connect the above obedience to?

The only ones that do obey Christ are those that are saved.

Such as these?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9, are clearly describing the fate of those that are lost and do not obey Christ. Obedience will only come from the saved. Salvation is by grace, not works of any kind.

That's the reason they are lost--they do not obey Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

That is not so, the reason that anyone is lost is that they do not believe.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But these are the ones who believe--and the reason they are not condemned:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Saxon]

Thank you.

[Saxon]

Your inability to read the Bible in context is your problem.

***us 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's the reason they are lost:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The scriptures connect obedience and eternal life.

Then to whom do you connect the above obedience to?

Such as these?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's the reason they are lost--they do not obey Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


But these are the ones who believe--and the reason they are not condemned:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Your inability to read the Bible in context is your problem.

***us 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Hi Saxon:

That seems to be the usual retort of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures. Straw man arguments never were convincing nor compelling.

What do you find as out of context about the above scriptures?