The Gift

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Salvation is a gift, free to the receiver. The saved are the only ones that obey God, the lost obviously don't.

Salvation is a gift of God. As the parables show--we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given:


Matthew 25:14-31--King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

[Saxon]

Salvation is a gift of God. As the parables show--we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given:

You have just stumbled into the truth. You said that salvation is a gift, to that I agree. You have also stated that we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given, I can agree with that. What you have to do now is realize what you have just said.

We stand before God without salvation. The gift is given and we stand before God with/in salvation. Standing with/in salvation we are judged in accordance with what we do with salvation. Salvation was given freely without any work to receive salvation, but now that we have received salvation we are responsible to follow Christ and remain in him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You have just stumbled into the truth. You said that salvation is a gift, to that I agree. You have also stated that we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given, I can agree with that. What you have to do now is realize what you have just said.

We stand before God without salvation. The gift is given and we stand before God with/in salvation. Standing with/in salvation we are judged in accordance with what we do with salvation. Salvation was given freely without any work to receive salvation, but now that we have received salvation we are responsible to follow Christ and remain in him.

Those who received the gifts were judged in accordance with what they had done with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness.

That defies faith alone theology. As the parable shows--they were His servants to begin with--and were later cast into outer darkness--because they failed to magnify their gifts:

Matthew 25:14-31--King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[Saxon]

Those who received the gifts were judged in accordance with what they had done with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness.

That defies faith alone theology. As the parable shows--they were His servants to begin with--and were later cast into outer darkness--because they failed to magnify their gifts:

Yes they were all the Lord’s servants to begin with, therefore they were saved. The ones that failed to do the work that God had ordained them to do (See Ephesians 2:10) were cast into outer darkness. This is why I do not believe once saved always saved.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Both of these verses are written to the saved. They are both warning the saved to continue until your physical death, the end. If we, the saved, hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end and if we walk in the light, the light being Christ, we will not fall from grace.

What God commands the saved to do, you want the lost to do. That will not happen.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Yes they were all the Lord’s servants to begin with, therefore they were saved. The ones that failed to do the work that God had ordained them to do (See Ephesians 2:10) were cast into outer darkness.

That only connects works with salvation.

[Saxon]

That disconnects works from gaining salvation. The section you chose depicts the people involved as his servants to begin with. The works that were being done were works to do because they were already his servants and it was because they were his servants, not to become his servants.

I am speaking of becoming saved that there is no works required. Becoming saved is the gift by grace. After you are saved that there are works that are done because you are in Christ, saved.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

[alanmolstad]

that is correct Saxon!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Those who received the gifts were judged in accordance with what they had done with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness.

That defies faith alone theology. As the parable shows--they were His servants to begin with--and were later cast into outer darkness--because they failed to magnify their gifts:

Matthew 25:14-31--King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Originally Posted by Saxon

That disconnects works from gaining salvation. The section you chose depicts the people involved as his servants to begin with. The works that were being done were works to do because they were already his servants and it was because they were his servants, not to become his servants.

The servants who did not magnify their gifts were cast into outer darkness. That is a judgment according to works--for life or ****ation:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one comport that to faith alone theology?

[Saxon]

The servants who did not magnify their gifts were cast into outer darkness. That is a judgment according to works--for life or ****ation:

They were already his servants, saved. They did not stay his servants and lost the salvation that was given them as a gift by grace. How else do you become a servant of God? Once saved always saved is not a biblical teaching.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one comport that to faith alone theology?

As I have said before, works are done because you are saved, not, repeat, not to get saved. There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

This is the resurrection of the saved and the lost. The saved are the ones that had done good by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and the lost are the ones that had done evil by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ, the light. (See John 3:19) There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

As I have said before, works are done because you are saved, not, repeat, not to get saved. There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

But according to the Bible, the rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to be saved, and Jesus gave him a list of commandments. When the man said he was already obeying those, Jesus added the final ones the man needed to obey in order for his obedience to be complete (translated "perfect" in some English Bibles): Sell all he had, give the money to the poor, and then follow Jesus.

The obvious implication is that IF the man would do those things Jesus told him were required, the man would be saved. Jesus NEVER told the man "Because you are already saved, you must, or you will, do the following things...."
I am willing to believe what Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The servants who did not magnify their gifts were cast into outer darkness. That is a judgment according to works--for life or ****ation:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one comport that to faith alone theology?

Originally Posted by Saxon

They were already his servants, saved. They did not stay his servants and lost the salvation that was given them as a gift by grace.

And that because of works, or lack of works. That defies faith alone theology.


2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

How else do you become a servant of God? Once saved always saved is not a biblical teaching.

And neither is faith alone theology:

James 2:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

As I have said before, works are done because you are saved, not, repeat, not to get saved.

Again--the testimony of the Savior defies faith alone theology:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This is the resurrection of the saved and the lost. The saved are the ones that had done good by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ...

And this is their belief:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Saxon]

And that because of works, or lack of works. That defies faith alone theology.

If you care to read what you had quoted, Matthew 25:14-31, you would see that the servants were already his servants and the works that they were judged for were the works described in your quote of Matthew 25:14-31. They were not judged to see if they were to become servants because they already were servants. This is a story of the kingdom of heaven, the saved and their Lord. There is no promotion of works to gain salvation in Matthew 25:14-31

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is not a work but a state of being.

And neither is faith alone theology:

James 2:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You have failed to prove the concept of working to gain salvation. Justification is something that happens after salvation is granted by God.

Again--the testimony of the Savior defies faith alone theology:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And this is their belief:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Saxon]

But according to the Bible, the rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to be saved, and Jesus gave him a list of commandments. When the man said he was already obeying those, Jesus added the final ones the man needed to obey in order for his obedience to be complete (translated "perfect" in some English Bibles): Sell all he had, give the money to the poor, and then follow Jesus.

The obvious implication is that IF the man would do those things Jesus told him were required, the man would be saved. Jesus NEVER told the man "Because you are already saved, you must, or you will, do the following things...."
I am willing to believe what Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying.

To keep the context of the whole Bible, the obvious implication is to follow Jesus. Believing in Jesus is the only way to salvation. You can look at little snippets of Bible verses and have them say what you want. If you do not ignore the rest of the Bible you would see that the conclusion that you have jumped to is not correct. Any time you add works to gain salvation you have to explain why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

If you care to read what you had quoted, Matthew 25:14-31, you would see that the servants were already his servants and the works that they were judged for were the works described in your quote of Matthew 25:14-31. They were not judged to see if they were to become servants because they already were servants. This is a story of the kingdom of heaven, the saved and their Lord. There is no promotion of works to gain salvation in Matthew 25:14-31

The servants were judged according to works--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness". What don't you consider salvation about the "joy of thy lord"--or lack of it in "outer darkness"?

Again:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is not a work but a state of being.

Hebrews 6:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And what don't you consider a work about water baptism?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What don't you consider a work about water baptism--or the remission of sins to be God's grace?

You have failed to prove the concept of working to gain salvation.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

What don't you consider God's salvational grace about the Holy Ghost?

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Justification is something that happens after salvation is granted by God.

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I will again:

Ephesians 2 states it isn't the works that saves one--but God's grace. Ephesians2 states nothing about God not extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The Bible testifies that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works.

Please comport your theology with the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

To keep the context of the whole Bible, the obvious implication is to follow Jesus. Believing in Jesus is the only way to salvation.

How is following Jesus not believing in Him?

John 10:27-28---King James Version (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 14:23-24---King James Version (KJV)
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

[Saxon]

If you don't believe in him you wont be following him.

[Saxon]

The servants were judged according to works--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness". What don't you consider salvation about the "joy of thy lord"--or lack of it in "outer darkness"?

That doesn't take away from the fact that they were already his servants and were doing the works or not. They were already his servants. They were not trying to become servants, they were.

Hebrews 6:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And what don't you consider a work about water baptism?

Water baptism is a work. The problem is, water baptism does not save. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no water baptism in that statement.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What don't you consider a work about water baptism--or the remission of sins to be God's grace?

Water baptism and repentance is a work that happens after you are saved. You are to repent and be baptized because of the remission of your sins. Find an English dictionary and find out about how for, can and is used as because.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

What don't you consider God's salvational grace about the Holy Ghost?

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Learn what out of context is.

I will again:

Ephesians 2 states it isn't the works that saves one--but God's grace. Ephesians2 states nothing about God not extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The Bible testifies that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works.

Please comport your theology with the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

What is it that we are to obey??? I don't need you to side track about what it doesn't say, I want you to comment on what it does say. Why is Ephesians 2:8 and 9 not true

[alanmolstad]

correct!!!!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

That doesn't take away from the fact that they were already his servants and were doing the works or not. They were already his servants. They were not trying to become servants, they were.

And it does not take away the fact those servants were judged according to their works for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology.

Water baptism is a work. The problem is, water baptism does not save.

But obedience to Christ does bring His salvational grace:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no water baptism in that statement.

Is this the belief you refer to?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Water baptism and repentance is a work that happens after you are saved.

Are you claiming we don't need the forgiveness of sins to be saved?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Water baptism and repentance is a work that happens after you are saved. You are to repent and be baptized because of the remission of your sins. Find an English dictionary and find out about how for, can and is used as because.

The Preposition “Eis” in Acts 2:38----by Wayne Jackson

https://www.christiancourier.com/art...s-in-acts-2-38


For several generations God’s people have conducted debates with our denominational neighbors as to the meaning of the word “for” (Greek, eis) in Acts 2:38. Peter commanded on that occasion:

“Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [unto ASV] the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The English term “for” is very flexible; it may indicate a goal that is yet not reached, e.g., “Go to the pharmacy for [to obtain] medicine.” Or it may be used to refer to a circumstance that has transpired already, e.g., “He went to prison for [on account of] burglary.”

Because of this flexibility with reference to “for,” some have ***umed that the Greek word eis has the same flexibility, and therefore baptism is not to obtain the forgiveness of one’s sins; rather, it is engaged because of pardon received already (presumably at the point of faith). There are several things to be said in response to this ploy.

English Is Not Greek

Just because the English “for” has some elasticity, and thus may point to a precedent circumstance, such does not mean that the Greek preposition eis has similar properties.

The Greek term eis is found about 1,750 times in the New Testament. While it has a variety of meaning shades, it always is prospective (forward looking), and is never retrospective (backward looking) in its direction.

It is “an indicator of direction toward a goal, not as an indicator of location without direction” (Balz, 398). The preposition is used with the accusative case, meaning it points to the object of verbal action. Thus eis generally is translated by such terms as in, into, unto, to, toward, etc. It is a goal-oriented term.

Theology and Grammar Matters

Theologically speaking, the construction of the compound verbs — “repent and be baptized” — connected with the prepositional phrase — “for the forgiveness of sins” — demonstrates that the sense of eis cannot possibly be “because of,” thus conveying the sense, “on account of the forgiveness of your sins." And why is that?

Because it would equally affirm that one is required to “repent” because of the forgiveness of his sins. Who in the world subscribes to the notion that one repents of sin because his transgressions are forgiven already? That makes no sense at all.

Comparative P***ages Highlight the Truth

In Matthew 26:28 there is an identical construction of eis, conjoined with the terms “forgiveness of sins,” just as in Acts 2:38.

In the Matthew text, as he ins***utes the communion supper, Jesus said: “this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.”

Even the renowned Baptist scholar, A. T. Robertson, who attempted to twist Acts 2:38 into conformity with his personal theological agenda, was forced to surrender his position when discussing Matthew 26:28. Of the controversial phrase he stated:

“The purpose of the shedding of his blood of the New Covenant was precisely to remove (forgive) sins” (210; emphasis added).

In his m***ive Historical Grammar, Robertson suggested that sometimes “grammar” has to give way to “theology” (389). Is that any way to treat the verbally inspired word of God? Yet that is how Robertson sought to dispose of Acts 2:38. For shame!


Conclusion

It is a sad day in the history of the church of Jesus Christ when men — formerly sound, gospel preachers — begin to deny, both by pen and via pulpit, that baptism is required “for the remission of sins.”

[Phoenix]

Well, Saxon, I think the evidence that dberrie has provided pretty much shoots down your belief--a belief that you based on cherry-picked proof texts. When the Bible is correctly understood, it teaches that there is a path that leads to eternal life, and in order to be on that path and arrive at that destination, you need to be obeying Christ's commandments.

The opposite scenario--you get saved first, and then you start meeting the conditions for salvation--is as illogical as a scenario where a college hands you a graduation diploma first, and then you are able to start taking the undergrad cl***es and taking the exams that are required to get a degree.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

If you don't believe in him you wont be following him.

So the order should go like this:

1. First, you decide to believe in Him.
2. Because you believe and you want to be with Him, you follow Him.
3. If you keep believing and following Him, you will end up being with Him.

What issues do you have with such a sequence?

[Saxon]

And it does not take away the fact those servants were judged according to their works for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology.

Of course those servants were judged according to their works. That is not the point. The point is that they were already servants and the works that were being done were because they were his srevants. They were not working to become his servants. This defies the idea that you work to gain salvation.

You still have not told me why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But obedience to Christ does bring His salvational grace:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is contrary to Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that states salvation is by grace through faith, a gift of God, not of works. What Peter is saying is that baptism is a symbol (like figure) of salvation He is not saying that baptism saves but it is a “like figure” of salvation.

In the flood the water saved no one. The ark is a symbol of Christ. Everyone in the ark was saved from the water. Everyone in Christ is saved from sin. No one is saved by works including baptism. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Is this the belief you refer to?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

I was not thinking of that one because it is obvious that you do not understand it as you like to take it out of context and claim that it says that you need to do something to gain salvation even though Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says that salvation is a gift and not of works.

This is the scripture that I was referring to; Acts 16:30 to 32. This states the requirement for salvation pain and clear, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing is all that we can do for salvation. Our believing does not place God under any obligation to save anyone either. God saves us because he loves us and wants to save us. God stated that Ephesians 1:3 and 4. Those that are in Christ are the ones that are saved and all that God asks is that we believe. That is what saves us, God by his grace. After we are saved we are expected to live a Christian life that includes all that you tell me we need to do to gain salvation. You have got it all backwards according to the Bible.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Are you claiming we don't need the forgiveness of sins to be saved?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Of course we need forgiveness of sins and that is what salvation is about. We still do not need to do anything to gain salvation, that is a gift. After we are saved we are required to live a Christian life that includes good works. Ephesians 2:10 says that we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. From this statement it is clear that we do good works because we are in Christ. We do not do good works to get into Christ. You still have it backwards according to the Bible.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Saxon]

It is true that English is not Greek. The English Bible (KJV for one) translated the Greek to say for. The majority say for. We are now stuck with the English as I don't think that you are fluent in Greek and I know that I am not. if you have a problem with the translation you will find that the majority of English translations use "for" and that will include the ability of for to be stating "because". If it is not because, then it is not inline with the clear statements of Ephesians 2:8 to 10 grace through faith, a gift of God and not of works.

I find it strange that you are like a dog with a bone over Acts 2:38 and so easily **** away Ephesians 2:8 to 10 as if it was not there. Why is that?

[Saxon]

Well, Saxon, I think the evidence that dberrie has provided pretty much shoots down your belief--a belief that you based on cherry-picked proof texts. When the Bible is correctly understood, it teaches that there is a path that leads to eternal life, and in order to be on that path and arrive at that destination, you need to be obeying Christ's commandments.

Of course you do. Explain why Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is not true. It is 180 degrees out of phase with what you are trying to say is the way to salvation. You don’t seem to wish to compare scriptures to see if they are in agreement or not. If salvation is a gift then it cannot be worked for as that turns it into a wage, something earned. It is either a gift or not and Ephesians 2:8 states undeniably that it is a gift. Also see Romans 6:23 making another undeniable statement that eternal life (salvation) is a gift of God.

After you are save, a new creation in Christ then you are expexted to do good works that you are telling me need to be done in order to gain salvation. You do not work to gain a gift.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The opposite scenario--you get saved first, and then you start meeting the conditions for salvation--is as illogical as a scenario where a college hands you a graduation diploma first, and then you are able to start taking the undergrad cl***es and taking the exams that are required to get a degree.

You get saved first and you have already met the conditions of salvation. After you are saved you have to meet the conditions of a Christian by living a Christian life that includes good works. (See Ephesians 2:10)