The Gift

[alanmolstad]

you guys are doing great......no need for me to get involved at all.....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You get saved first and you have already met the conditions of salvation. After you are saved you have to meet the conditions of a Christian by living a Christian life that includes good works.

If only you could actually find a Bible verse that says "First you're saved, and then you start obeying Christ" you would have some support for your "cart first, horse at the rear" soteriology.

In the real world and in true Christian soteriology, the horse goes first and the cart follows.
If you want the college degree, you sign up as a student, you take the cl***es, p*** the tests, and THEN you get the diploma, upon completion of your schooling.

If you want eternal life, you become a Christian, you learn the doctrines, you obey the commandments, and THEN you get eternal life, at the end of your schooling as a disciple. Right now you are a freshman. They're not going to hand you a bachelor's degree yet.

[Saxon]

If only you could actually find a Bible verse that says "First you're saved, and then you start obeying Christ" you would have some support for your "cart first, horse at the rear" soteriology.

In the real world and in true Christian soteriology, the horse goes first and the cart follows.
If you want the college degree, you sign up as a student, you take the cl***es, p*** the tests, and THEN you get the diploma, upon completion of your schooling.

If you want eternal life, you become a Christian, you learn the doctrines, you obey the commandments, and THEN you get eternal life, at the end of your schooling as a disciple. Right now you are a freshman. They're not going to hand you a bachelor's degree yet.

Can you show me an unsaved person that is willing to follow Christ??? There isn’t any. Before salvation there is none righteous, there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God, they are out of the way, they are unprofitable and there are none that do good. (See Romans 3:10 to 12) In a mob like that, who is going to be obeying Christ? As I said before; none!

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You insist on ignoring the Bible when it says that salvation, becoming a Christian, is a gift, it isn’t earned, it is a gift. Ephesians 2:8 to 10 lays out the steps to becoming saved, a Christian, and what is to be done after you are a saved Christian. (You can’t be a Christian unless you are saved)

Salvation is by grace, because God loves you, through faith, because without faith it is impossible to please God, (See Hebrews 11:6) not of yourself, because it is a gift of God and not of works, so you can’t boast about having earned or merited salvation. There is no way you can accept Ephesians 2:8 and 9 as true and still believe that you have to do something to gain salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 states that we have been created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. The works come after salvation. Being in Christ is where you are when you are saved. (See 2 Corinthians 5:17) God gives a person salvation as a gift but expects the saved to do the good works that he has for us to do. That is living the Christian life. If you want to do works, get saved, become a real Christian and you will have the rest of your life to do the works that God has ordained for you to do.

After you are saved then you are righteous, understand, seek after God, are in the way, are profitable and are they that do good. You are the one that has the horse before the cart if you believe what the Bible teaches. Why do you believe that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Of course those servants were judged according to their works. That is not the point. The point is that they were already servants and the works that were being done were because they were his srevants. They were not working to become his servants. This defies the idea that you work to gain salvation.

It confirms that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You still have not told me why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

I've never made any claim Ephesians2 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And where does it state anything about God not giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Everyone in Christ is saved from sin. No one is saved by works including baptism. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

The scriptures testify one is saved from sin when they walk in His light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I was not thinking of that one because it is obvious that you do not understand it as you like to take it out of context and claim that it says that you need to do something to gain salvation even though Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says that salvation is a gift and not of works.

It states one is given the gift of the remission of sins due to obedience:

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

How does that differ from Paul's testimony?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It is true that English is not Greek. The English Bible (KJV for one) translated the Greek to say for. The majority say for. We are now stuck with the English as I don't think that you are fluent in Greek and I know that I am not. if you have a problem with the translation you will find that the majority of English translations use "for" and that will include the ability of for to be stating "because". If it is not because, then it is not inline with the clear statements of Ephesians 2:8 to 10 grace through faith, a gift of God and not of works.

I find it strange that you are like a dog with a bone over Acts 2:38 and so easily **** away Ephesians 2:8 to 10 as if it was not there. Why is that?

There are no translations that use "because" for the "eis" in Acts2:38. "Eis" is translated as "for" in all translations. That has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is it about Acts2:38 that you believe violates, or isn't "inline" with Ephesians2:8-9?

Saxon--your post seems to reflect the run-to of the faith alone whenever they are backed into a corner by the Biblical scriptures--they start the cancel and cover attempt--and pit the scriptures against one another.

I don't see anything in Ephesians2 that states God does not give His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Can you show me an unsaved person that is willing to follow Christ??? There isn’t any.

Can you show us where the Biblical scriptures places anyone in the Kingdom of God without first being judged in accordance with works--and that for God's grace of "Life"--or "****ation"?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Saxon]

Can you show us where the Biblical scriptures places anyone in the Kingdom of God without first being judged in accordance with works--and that for God's grace of "Life"--or "****ation"?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The entrance to the Kingdom of God is at salvation; the kingdom of God is within you. Being born of water and of the Spirit, saved, brings you into the Kingdom of God. Being in the Spirit is being in the Kingdom of God.

Being born again is not baptism. It is a second birth. Born of water is the natural birth and being born of the Spirit is the second birth, born again. (See John 3:5 and 6)

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Saxon]

There are no translations that use "because" for the "eis" in Acts2:38. "Eis" is translated as "for" in all translations. That has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When an English word is used, all its meanings can be used when the context allows. Because is valid, check an English dictionary.

What is it about Acts2:38 that you believe violates, or isn't "inline" with Ephesians2:8-9?

It is the way you are using Acts 2:38 that violates Ephesians 2:8 to 9. You claim that you must do some work to gain salvation such as repent and be baptized. This idea is in violation of the clear statement that salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith, NOT of works.

Saxon--your post seems to reflect the run-to of the faith alone whenever they are backed into a corner by the Biblical scriptures--they start the cancel and cover attempt--and pit the scriptures against one another.

It isn’t that I am backed into a corner, it is you that totally and blatantly ignores what Ephesians 2:8 to 9 says. What part of “gift” and “not of works” is so impossible to understand?

You are the one that pits scripture against scripture by making them oppose one another. Not of works means not of works no matter how you want to look at it. You still have to explain why you think Ephesians 2:8 to 9 is not true.

I don't see anything in Ephesians2 that states God does not give His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

That is because there is nothing in Ephesians 2 that states God does not give His salvational grace to them that obey Him. What you need to contemplate is what Ephesians 2 does say, gift of God, not of works.

Salvation is a gift and gifts are free to the receiver, not earned (worked for).

Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

What washes away your sins? Baptism or calling on the name of the Lord? (See Acts 2:21) No baptism for salvation here!

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to p***, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Saxon]

Can you show me an unsaved person that is willing to follow Christ??? I am not the only one allowed to answer questions, jump in.

[Saxon]

It confirms that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Are you sidestepping the issue? They were his servants to start with. They were not working to get salvation, they had it already.

I've never made any claim Ephesians2 is not true.

You don’t believe it when it says salvation is a gift or that it is not of works so you must think it is not true.

And where does it state anything about God not giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

It doesn’t. Try looking at it for what it does say.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The scriptures testify one is saved from sin when they walk in His light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus is the light that we are to walk in. To be in Christ is to be saved. If we walk in the light, Jesus, we have to be saved first or we cannot walk in the light. You still have it all backwards. Christ’s cleansing is a continuous occurrence. This happens to the saved that received Christ as a gift from God.

It states one is given the gift of the remission of sins due to obedience:

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

It can’t be saying that because it is at variance to Ephesians 2:8 to 10. There is no real contradictions in the Bible but every time you say that there is something to be done to gain salvation you make a false statement that does not agree with the Bible.

The remission of sins comes with salvation that is a gift from God and is NOT of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How does that differ from Paul's testimony?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

There is no difference with Paul’s testimony. The problem is with you. You haven’t taken the time to figure out when the lost or saved are being referred to. Do you know the difference between the lost and saved????

[Saxon]

So the order should go like this:

1. First, you decide to believe in Him.
2. Because you believe and you want to be with Him, you follow Him.
3. If you keep believing and following Him, you will end up being with Him.

What issues do you have with such a sequence?

In essence there is no issue. When you do believe in him, you are immediately saved and are with him, in him, seated in heavenly places. (See Ephesians 2:5 and 26) If you keep on following him you will always be with him.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

In essence there is no issue. When you do believe in him, you are immediately saved and are with him, in him, seated in heavenly places. (See Ephesians 2:5 and 26) If you keep on following him you will always be with him.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Since there is no material issue, and the only real issue is WHEN this salvation takes place, then it seems you agree that it's not an essential doctrine, therefore Christians can disagree over when the salvation occurs, and still remain Christians, so maybe it's not worth fighting over.

[Saxon]

Since there is no material issue, and the only real issue is WHEN this salvation takes place, then it seems you agree that it's not an essential doctrine, therefore Christians can disagree over when the salvation occurs, and still remain Christians, so maybe it's not worth fighting over.

Knowing when salvation takes place is not needed in order to receive salvation because salvation depends on God and his grace, nothing else. The reasoned that it is good to know when salvation occurs is that it allows you to become aware of the truth, as being aware of what the Bible teaches helps you live the Christian life. A person does not need to know the Bible in order to be saved, but in order to live the Christian life with any success you need to know what the Bible teaches. If you do not know what the Bible teaches then you will go after any one that says that they are teaching Christian doctrine. If you don’t know what the Bible is about then you are going to be led into false teachings and doctrines.

Any teaching that you think is false is worth fighting over as you or I could be wrong and if we are true to ourselves at least, we want to be on the right team, don’t we?

When is a Mormon truly saves according to Mormon teaching?

[Phoenix]

LDS doctrine is that the Bible teaches that eternal life is a destination that you arrive at by following steps:

1. Have faith in God and Christ.
2. Follow their commandments, in faith, for the rest of your life.

That is how to start down the path that leads to eternal life, and how to remain on that path so that you end up with eternal life at the end of the path.

What if the people who believe "the Bible teaches that you get instantaneous eternal life the second you start to have faith in Christ" are correct?

Still, the LDS should end up with eternal life even if they were wrong to believe that eternal life comes to those who who endure to the end in faithful obedience, so perhaps the question of when the faithful Christian gets eternal life is not one of the few essential saving doctrines.

Paul taught the Corinthians that the gospel doctrines of chief importance are:

Jesus atoned for our sins and was resurrected and seen by other people after His resurrection.

[Saxon]

LDS doctrine is that the Bible teaches that eternal life is a destination that you arrive at by following steps:

1. Have faith in God and Christ.
2. Follow their commandments, in faith, for the rest of your life.

That is how to start down the path that leads to eternal life, and how to remain on that path so that you end up with eternal life at the end of the path.

What if the people who believe "the Bible teaches that you get instantaneous eternal life the second you start to have faith in Christ" are correct?

Still, the LDS should end up with eternal life even if they were wrong to believe that eternal life comes to those who who endure to the end in faithful obedience, so perhaps the question of when the faithful Christian gets eternal life is not one of the few essential saving doctrines.

Paul taught the Corinthians that the gospel doctrines of chief importance are:

Jesus atoned for our sins and was resurrected and seen by other people after His resurrection.

On the surface, what you have said is “good”. I can see where you are coming from, but knowing what you believe to a large degree I think that you are wrong.

Your version of the Trinity is different from mine. Your version has three personages, 1 the Father, 2 the Son 3 the Holy Ghost, three gods. My version if the Trinity is one God made up of three persons equal in all things The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God, keeping with the Bible when it states that there is only one God.

I believe that salvation is instantaneous when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. As a saved person you are to follow the commandments of God in faith, for the rest of your life or you will stop being a Christian because your life will no longer be that of a Christian. This idea gets people that believe in once saved always saved upset, but I don’t believe OSAS is supported by the Bible. If you stop being a Christian then you have not endured to the end. When you die physically you are removed from temptation and then you are out of danger of falling away.

The only way to be saved is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and after that all your obedience is because you are saved, not to obtain salvation.

Jesus atoning for our sin and resurrection is the cornerstone of what was done in order for man to be offered salvation. God gives salvation as a gift and after we receive salvation we are obligated to live a Christ directed Christian life. All the works that count for anything are done after salvation is granted.

Our beliefs are definitely in opposition to one another.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

On the surface, what you have said is “good”.

And your beliefs seem to be good as well...on the surface.

I can see where you are coming from, but knowing what you believe to a large degree I think that you are wrong.

I can and do say the same about you.

Your version of the Trinity is different from mine.

True.

Your version has three personages, 1 the Father, 2 the Son 3 the Holy Ghost, three gods.

Correct, and it can be supported by Bible verses.

My version if the Trinity is one God made up of three persons equal in all things

Your version isn't supported by the Bible. Your "absolutely co-equal in all things" mantra can't be found in the Bible, and in fact is refuted by verses stating otherwise. Your version comes from a creed, not from Bible verses.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God, keeping with the Bible when it states that there is only one God.

I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. LDS official doctrine says they are one God. The difference is that when you say it, you mean it literally, and when I say it, I mean it metaphorically....as the Bible intended it to be meant.

But what does it matter who is right and wrong on that? Do all Christians who refuse to believe that the 3 Persons are co-equal, get sent to hell as a result of that belief? Is it one of those 3 or 4 essential doctrines that really matter, salvation-wise?

I believe that salvation is instantaneous when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. As a saved person you are to follow the commandments of God in faith, for the rest of your life or you will stop being a Christian because your life will no longer be that of a Christian. This idea gets people that believe in once saved always saved upset, but I don’t believe OSAS is supported by the Bible.

So you and I both reject the idea of OSAS. But even if we didn't have the same belief about that, would it make one of us an unsaved, non-Christian cultist? I think not.

If you stop being a Christian then you have not endured to the end.

You and I believe the same thing on this one as well.

Our beliefs are definitely in opposition to one another.

Not in the places where I showed that they are not in opposition.

[Saxon]

Correct, and it can be supported by Bible verses.

Your support will have to contradict at least 15 verses that confirm that there is only one God. Show me the Bible support, don’t just mention it. Oh wait a minute; there is no support.

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand

2 Samuel 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

1 Chronicles 17:20 O Lord, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

Psalm 86:10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 45: 18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Your version isn't supported by the Bible. Your "absolutely co-equal in all things" mantra can't be found in the Bible, and in fact is refuted by verses stating otherwise. Your version comes from a creed, not from Bible verses.

The Bible says that there is only one God and there is no more. The Bible calls the Father God. The Bible calls the Son God and the Bible calls the Holy Spirit God. There is only one God so the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are the one God.

I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. LDS official doctrine says they are one God. The difference is that when you say it, you mean it literally, and when I say it, I mean it metaphorically....as the Bible intended it to be meant.

Where do you get the idea that it is meant to be taken metaphorically? It makes more sense to read it and take it as it is written without the guessing game.

But what does it matter who is right and wrong on that? Do all Christians who refuse to believe that the 3 Persons are co-equal, get sent to hell as a result of that belief? Is it one of those 3 or 4 essential doctrines that really matter, salvation-wise?

What is required for a person to gain salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Learning doctrine is after a person is saved.

So you and I both reject the idea of OSAS. But even if we didn't have the same belief about that, would it make one of us an unsaved, non-Christian cultist? I think not.

I can agree with that.

Not in the places where I showed that they are not in opposition

.

That is true. It is more correct to say that the majority of our beliefs are in opposition to one another.

[Phoenix]

Paul wrote that although there are gods or things that are called gods, to us--to Christians--there is one God. And Paul identified that God as the Person who is Christ's Father. Jesus added that His God is also His Father, and that our God is His "Father who art in heaven."

So you have a problem if you're not LDS, because you have to come up with an explanation for how Jesus and Paul can say that the "only true God" is Jesus' Father, yet still believe that Jesus, too, is deity. The obvious answer is the one the LDS believe: That although our Father in Heaven is our only true God in the sense of being our creator, Jesus can be, and is, also a deity in His own right. Which means that there are multiple deities in the universe. That inescapable conclusion is what Trinitarians are forbidden to admit.

[Saxon]

Paul wrote that although there are gods or things that are called gods, to us--to Christians--there is one God. And Paul identified that God as the Person who is Christ's Father. Jesus added that His God is also His Father, and that our God is His "Father who art in heaven."

So you have a problem if you're not LDS, because you have to come up with an explanation for how Jesus and Paul can say that the "only true God" is Jesus' Father, yet still believe that Jesus, too, is deity. The obvious answer is the one the LDS believe: That although our Father in Heaven is our only true God in the sense of being our creator, Jesus can be, and is, also a deity in His own right. Which means that there are multiple deities in the universe. That inescapable conclusion is what Trinitarians are forbidden to admit.

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Calling something a God and it actually being a God are two different things. Seeing that you choose to ignore the Bible when it declares that there is only one God and God stating that there is no other gods, he knows not any, you can and will believe what you will. Seeing that I believe the Bible, there is only one God that is God. You are welcome to your polytheist, none Christian beliefs if you want.

In Christianity, God became a man and his father is God (Trinity). The LDS explanation is not anywhere near the Bible. Trinitarians are not “forbidden” it admit your nonsense, they will not as it is total foolishness when a person believes the Bible.

[Phoenix]

Trinitarians are not “forbidden” it admit your nonsense, they will not as it is total foolishness...

The spiritually blind will call the truth foolishness...

[Saxon]

That is so true!!!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Calling something a God and it actually being a God are two different things.

Anyone separating Jesus Christ(God the Son) out from the "one God" can in no way be considered a Trinitarian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" of the Biblical NT was Jesus' God and Father:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[Apologette]

Hey, Saxon, ask this denier of Christ's grace, dberrie, whether or not he considers Satan a true and powerful god.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Hey, Saxon, ask this denier of Christ's grace, dberrie, whether or not he considers Satan a true and powerful god.

Paul might have:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Calling something a God and it actually being a God are two different things.

Anyone separating Jesus Christ(God the Son) out from the "one God" can in no way be considered a Trinitarian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" of the Biblical NT was Jesus' God and Father:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Bump for anyone