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Thread: Belive And Be Saved

  1. #151
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    But your point doesn't answer my questions.
    yes it does...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes it does...
    Oh well, Alan doesn't have an answer. Anyone else want to give it a shot?

  3. #153
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    Joe lied...slept with other men's wives...people found out and Joe died.

    Along the way Joe lied about christ and if you put your faith in Joe's version of Christ you are lost....Case closed
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  4. #154
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    So all the faith in the world in Joe's christ is a moot point
    You are still lost.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So all the faith in the world in Joe's christ is a moot point You are still lost.
    It seems to me that there are always those who, when unable to defend their own theology--launch into the attack and judge mode.

    Please do relate to us what you find in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It seems to me that there are always those who, when unable to defend their own theology--launch into the attack and judge mode.

    Please do relate to us what you find in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    Still showing your ignorance of that text, I see. You have been shown that it comes from the eyes of MAN AND NOT FROM THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS OUR HEARTS, yet you keep trying to 'shlock it in' to your every post as though it is all you think you know. You have chosen to remain ignorant.

    NOT found n the lds religious cult?
    Rom 4:5-8
    5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
    7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
    And whose sins are covered;
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
    NKJV

    Of course you have been shown this too, several times before, but like the lds religious cult, you pretend it is not there and have no explanation for your ignorance.

  7. #157
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostIt seems to me that there are always those who, when unable to defend their own theology--launch into the attack and judge mode.

    Please do relate to us what you find in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Still showing your ignorance of that text, I see.
    Why is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?

    You have been shown that it comes from the eyes of MAN AND NOT FROM THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS OUR HEARTS, yet you keep trying to 'shlock it in' to your every post as though it is all you think you know.
    And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Why is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?



    And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE passage.

    Just because you own a car does not mean

    'Just by turning the key you can get in" means you can get into your car.

    Not when the CONTEXT of your conversation is how to get into your house.

    Someone once said: TEXT WITHOUT CONTEXT IS PRETEXT. And that is ALL YOU HAVE. Your intentional ignorance of that passage is underwhelming.

    But then TWO can play your little game.

    Isa 44:6
    "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
    And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
    'I am the First and I am the Last;
    Besides Me there is no God.
    NKV

    So joey smith's MULTIPLE GODS in pgp ABRAHAM 3 and 4 are FALSE GODS that he invented himself. Yep.

    The Bible even goes further:

    Isa 44:8
    Is there a God besides Me?
    Indeed there is no other Rock;
    I know not one.'"
    NKJV

    THE GOD OF THE BIBLE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW ANY OF SMITH's 'gods.'

    It's in the text.
    You can't change it.
    It makes smith's text a liar.

  9. #159
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhy is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?

    And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000ff]SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE passage.
    The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

    Just because you own a car does not mean 'Just by turning the key you can get in" means you can get into your car.
    It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

  10. #160
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhy is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?

    And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000ff]SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE passage.
    The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

    Just because you own a car does not mean 'Just by turning the key you can get in" means you can get into your car.
    It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

  11. #161
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    Default You are following the wrong gods.

    berry posted:


    SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE passage.


    The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

    When you RIP a sentence out of the context in which the writer wrote it, you are being dishonest. And when you 'pound on it' over and over, you get corrected over and over. Your constant whine about James 2:24 shows your own ignorance about what the text REALLY addresses and WHO it is speaking to and by.

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.[/QUOTE]

    Let's see now. . .WHO is Jesus speaking to, and WHAT is the status of that person? OH YES, Jesus is speaking to a JEW under the OLD LAW BEFORE ANYONE IS REMOVED FROM UNDER IT. He is NOT speaking to a CHRISTIAN.

    But of course, none of that matters to someone who is trying to force the passage into his own private little mouldy mold, now does it? You try very hard to do that.

    We CHRISTIANS are not under the 613 OT commandments any more. . .Judas was.

    Sorry berrie, but your boat simply doesn't float.

    God also told us:

    Rom 4:5-8
    5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
    7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
    And whose sins are covered;
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
    NKJV

    Do you REALLY BELIEVE your god contradicts himself by saying in one place Faith is accounted to Christians APART FROM WORKS, but in another that works are REQUIRED for salvation?

    Sorry berrie, but the REAL GOD doesn't contradict Himself like that.

    FAITH saves
    WORKS follow faith
    WORKS are seen by our fellow men
    FAITH is seen by God.

    And YOU are following the wrong gods.









  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

    It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000ff]When you RIP a sentence out of the context in which the writer wrote it, you are being dishonest. And when you 'pound on it' over and over, you get corrected over and over. Your constant whine about James 2:24 shows your own ignorance about what the text REALLY addresses and WHO it is speaking to and by.
    I don't find anything in that retort that is anything short of another--- taint so!!!

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    [COLOR=#0000ff]Let's see now. . .WHO is Jesus speaking to, and WHAT is the status of that person? OH YES, Jesus is speaking to a JEW under the OLD LAW BEFORE ANYONE IS REMOVED FROM UNDER IT. He is NOT speaking to a CHRISTIAN.[/quote]

    Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So--is that limited to Jews only?

    1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    FAITH saves
    In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

    It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000ff]When you RIP a sentence out of the context in which the writer wrote it, you are being dishonest. And when you 'pound on it' over and over, you get corrected over and over. Your constant whine about James 2:24 shows your own ignorance about what the text REALLY addresses and WHO it is speaking to and by.
    I don't find anything in that retort that is anything short of another--- taint so!!!

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    [COLOR=#0000ff]Let's see now. . .WHO is Jesus speaking to, and WHAT is the status of that person? OH YES, Jesus is speaking to a JEW under the OLD LAW BEFORE ANYONE IS REMOVED FROM UNDER IT. He is NOT speaking to a CHRISTIAN.
    Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So--is that limited to Jews only?

    1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    FAITH saves
    In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    But your point doesn't answer my questions. Since Mormons have faith in Jesus Christ, are we saved? Or is salvation by doubt instead?
    The problem is that the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus that Christians worship. Therefore the Jesus you worship is an idol, so consequently.

    The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation - Ensign Jan. 1989 - ensign

    You speak of being saved by grace, but the Mormon definition of grace is the exact opposite of Christian (Biblical) grace, and as far as I cat see, Mormon grace does absolutely nothing for you. Mormon grace means you have to work until you overcome your sins, and then grace is sufficient and is applied. Christian grace, on the other hand, means you are to rely on Christ's Work on the Cross rather than you own works to overcome sin.

    But in reality, Mormon "grace" really does nothing for you that I can see. You have to do everything yourself, overcoming sin in your life completely, and "then" is grace sufficient. But what exactly is Mormon grace and what does it do for you? That I can't figure out.

    WHAT IS GRACE?
    (In the quad) Bible Dictionary P 697
    This Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine Grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne 25:23) It is truly the Grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.

    But how? Just exactly how, does the "grace of Jesus Christ" make salvation possible? I don't see where this "grace" is doing anything at all. It probably makes Mormons feel good to hear this, but a dopamine rush won't secure your salvation. Just what exactly does this "grace" do for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.



    It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

    John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    Nonsense.

    'Tis so.

    In context, the Scriptures you post don't defy faith alone theology.

    And you know that, otherwise you would also post the Scriptures that we post, such as Eph 2:8-10 and Romans and Galatians which clearly state that salvation is by grace through faith alone and NOT of works. I have never seen you acknowledge that those verses even exist, even though we CONSTANTLY refer you to them and ask you why you don't consider them. You ignore them like this because they clearly prove that your false narrative is wrong.

    Even your own "scriptures" (and I use that term loosely) for example, D&C sections 76 and 132, and Moroni 7, clearly demonstrate that faith alone is the only means of salvation. When you post only the verses that say what you want them to say, out of the context, of course they point to disharmony and confusion instead of unity. I can cause the Bible to say anything I want it to that way, as you are clearly doing, but to do so is dishonest.

    But that's the whole point of posting them out of context, isn't it? To dishonestly mock and confuse ignorant Christians with a Gospel of confusion when in fact, in context there is unity throughout the Bible? Why would someone knowingly attempt to confound God's Word like this unless their intentions are purely evil?
    Last edited by Berean; 01-15-2017 at 10:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    The problem is that the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus that Christians worship. Therefore the Jesus you worship is an idol, so consequently.

    The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation - Ensign Jan. 1989 - ensign

    You speak of being saved by grace, but the Mormon definition of grace is the exact opposite of Christian (Biblical) grace, and as far as I cat see, Mormon grace does absolutely nothing for you. Mormon grace means you have to work until you overcome your sins, and then grace is sufficient and is applied. Christian grace, on the other hand, means you are to rely on Christ's Work on the Cross rather than you own works to overcome sin.

    But in reality, Mormon "grace" really does nothing for you that I can see. You have to do everything yourself, overcoming sin in your life completely, and "then" is grace sufficient. But what exactly is Mormon grace and what does it do for you? That I can't figure out.

    WHAT IS GRACE?
    (In the quad) Bible Dictionary P 697
    This Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine Grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne 25:23) It is truly the Grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.

    But how? Just exactly how, does the "grace of Jesus Christ" make salvation possible? I don't see where this "grace" is doing anything at all. It probably makes Mormons feel good to hear this, but a dopamine rush won't secure your salvation. Just what exactly does this "grace" do for you?
    Nonsense .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    Nonsense .
    Still can't think of anything original I see.

    Or mount a rational, intelligent, adult argument beyond... nuh uh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    Nonsense .

    Is this you?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    In context, the Scriptures you post don't defy faith alone theology.
    Then perhaps you could collate the scriptures with faith alone theology for us?

    James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Saxon:

    One question:

    Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    we are saved by grace though faith and not "by" works....


    Not "BY" works......

    Thus faith can be always with works and that is not the issue...the only teaching of the Bible is that works do not save nor add to salvation.


    So to sum up once again- We are saved by grace though faith and not "by" wiorks, but we should also remember that our faith is never "without" works...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Joe Smith lied...

    Joe Smith slept with other men's wives...

    When people found out they went after him as is expected for Joe was a very evil man...and Joe died.

    Along the way Joe lied about christ and if you put your faith in Joe's version of Christ you are lost....Case closed
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Joe Smith lied...

    Joe Smith slept with other men's wives...
    So do you think the Mormon founder Joe Smith ever got a 3-way going with two girls at once?...
    From the several descriptions I have read it seems that at one occasion he did seem to drop a hint that he was open to being into that.

    The story is that he had just "finished" with this one young girl, and she got up and out of the bed when Joe Smith asked if she could go as her sister to join him?

    I believe this was a kinda sleazy attempt to get two sisters to have sex with him at the same time...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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