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Thread: Belive And Be Saved

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    The reason you are so confused is all that Mormon false teaching running through your head.

    All a man or woman must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they shall be saved. God said he will save those that believe and he does so by grace because we can never deserve salvation. There is Man’s part and there is God’s part. It isn’t that complicated.

    There is a difference between saved and lost. The lost can do nothing that will obligate God to save them so God gives salvation as a gift to those that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once the gift is given and received there is a new life that is to be lived. In that life we are to live a Christ directed Christian life that involves works.

    Don’t worry because faith does not save anyone, God does all the saving.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    All you have done is make your stance more confusing and contradictory.
    You are back to claiming that a belief alone saves, yet you have already acknowledged that belief alone does not save(ie demons who believe)
    You say that it is grace which saves, and that it's God who does all the saving???
    If God truely does all the saving, then why do we need faith or belief??? Wouldn't that cons***ute a requirement or an action on our part?
    You also contradicted yourself when you stated that a person could lose their salvation by their actions.
    If that is true then you are now saying that our works are tied to or salvation.... Whether those works happen before or after you are saved is irrelevant to the requirement.

    That is the paradox of Faith Alone believers... If you truely believe that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, then whatever we do before and after we are "saved" will have no consequences or repercussions on our salvation... In other words, if you were a true faith/belief Alone believer than you would also have to believe in OSAS as well.
    Last edited by theway; 04-15-2015 at 09:35 AM.

  2. #27
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    You also contradicted yourself when you stated that a person could lose their salvation by their actions.
    If that is true then you are now saying that our works are tied to or salvation.... Whether those works happen before or after you are saved is irrelevant to the requirement.

    That is the paradox of Faith Alone believers... If you truely believe that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, then whatever we do before and after we are "saved" will have no consequences or repercussions on our salvation... In other words, if you were a true faith/belief Alone believer than you would also have to believe in OSAS as well.
    Good observation, TheWay.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Good observation, TheWay.
    That's the problem with a lie... It always takes adding more lies to make it seem credible.

    You start with the Faith Alone lie, and then you have to invent OSAS to justify it.
    Before you know it you're up to five lies and TULIP.

  4. #29
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    All you have done is make your stance more confusing and contradictory.
    You are back to claiming that a belief alone saves, yet you have already acknowledged that belief alone does not save(ie demons who believe)
    You say that it is grace which saves, and that it's God who does all the saving???
    If God truely does all the saving, then why do we need faith or belief??? Wouldn't that cons***ute a requirement or an action on our part?
    If you care to look at my posts you will find that I have stated in a few places that belief does not save. Faith does not save. If you were to read the Bible closely you also notice that grace also is not a power to save either. Grace is not something tangible, it is the at***ude that God has toward man. If you would come out with a detailed answer as to what you think grace is, that would be interesting I am sure.

    The reason that we need faith is because God has declared that if we believe we will be saved. (See John 3:16) Believing is an act of faith. It is an action on man’s part, but that action does not put God in a position that obligates him to save anyone. Man can do nothing that will cause him to gain salvation. God, by his own will saves those that believe.

    All a man or woman must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they shall be saved. God said he will save those that believe and he does so by grace because we can never deserve salvation. There is Man’s part and there is God’s part. It isn’t that complicated.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



    You also contradicted yourself when you stated that a person could lose their salvation by their actions.
    If that is true then you are now saying that our works are tied to or salvation.... Whether those works happen before or after you are saved is irrelevant to the requirement.
    I also have stated that there is a difference in gaining salvation and living in salvation. While a person gains salvation by receiving salvation as a gift from God, (See Ephesians 2:8) once the gift is received the recipient is required to live a Christ directed Christian life that includes works. (See Ephesians 2:10) If a person is not living a Christian life, that person is no longer a Christian. I would possibly say that works are tied to maintaining a Christian life, but works or a lack of works is not the deal breaker. (See 1 Corinthians 3:13 to 15) A person’s at***ude is what makes the difference. In any case, works in no way, are involved with gaining salvation. (See Ephesians 2:9)

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



    That is the paradox of Faith Alone believers... If you truely believe that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, then whatever we do before and after we are "saved" will have no consequences or repercussions on our salvation... In other words, if you were a true faith/belief Alone believer than you would also have to believe in OSAS as well.
    In your own mind this may be what you consider to be true, but the Bible says a totally different reality. You don’t recognize the difference between before and after. Before salvation you are dead in sin, after salvation you are a new creature in Christ. That is a major difference.

    Contrary to what I have stated, you have cl***ified me as a faith/belief alone believer, but I do not believe in OSAS.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    You can take it any way you want to.
    I want to take it they way you meant it, but you're making it awfully difficult.

    The fact is that Jesus of the Bible is the creator of all things created and is not the spirit brother of Lucifer because the Jesus of the Bible created Lucifer.
    But as you said, we don't have to believe doctrine to be saved, so this question is moot regarding salvation.

    The Jesus of the Mormon thought is just one god among many.
    That is a lie.

    If you want to take that as yes you may as well keep on deluding yourself into thinking that there is no difference because we wouldn't want to think that the Mormon church could possibly be wrong.
    Was I supposed to take it as a no?

  6. #31
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    I want to take it they way you meant it, but you're making it awfully difficult.
    Do you understand what I meant?



    But as you said, we don't have to believe doctrine to be saved, so this question is moot regarding salvation.
    Correct, we don’t. My point is that if you or I are believing in the wrong Jesus then we can believe until we turn another colour and it will be for nothing. The Jesus of the Bible is a total departure from the Jesus of Mormon thought. The Mormon Jesus was a man that became a god while the Jesus of the Bible was God and became a man. Just on that point alone we are in a fatal contradiction. One of us is wrong enough to go to hell ***uming that there is a right one. I believe that the Bible Jesus is the true Jesus.



    That is a lie.
    That is not a lie. The Mormon Trinity is proof that the LDS believe in more than one God. The Father is a god, The Son is a god and the Holy Spirit is a god. The Mormon faith is polytheistic, more than one God.

    The Mormon heavenly father had a father who was a god and his father was a god and on and on it goes. This makes the Mormon Jesus a god among mul***udes of gods.



    Was I supposed to take it as a no?
    All that I can say is that there is a difference between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought. I trust the Bible and would say to you that if you want to be saved, the Jesus of the Bible is the only way.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Do you understand what I meant?
    I don't know anymore. It feels like I'm trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.

    The Jesus of the Bible is a total departure from the Jesus of Mormon thought.
    That is a lie. The Jesus of Mormon thought is Jesus Christ of the Bible.

    I believe that the Bible Jesus is the true Jesus.
    Hey, so do we! So we must be saved, right?

    That is not a lie.
    It is a lie.

    The Mormon Trinity is proof that the LDS believe in more than one God. The Father is a god, The Son is a god and the Holy Spirit is a god. The Mormon faith is polytheistic, more than one God.
    Then which two do you say are not God?

    The Mormon heavenly father had a father who was a god and his father was a god and on and on it goes. This makes the Mormon Jesus a god among mul***udes of gods.
    False.

    All that I can say is that there is a difference between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought.
    And you're wrong. You only say that because of doctrine, which you say we don't need to be saved, but then we do, but then we don't, but then we do...

    I trust the Bible and would say to you that if you want to be saved, the Jesus of the Bible is the only way.
    We know; that's why we follow him. So we must be saved, right?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    I don't know anymore. It feels like I'm trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.

    That is a lie. The Jesus of Mormon thought is Jesus Christ of the Bible.

    Hey, so do we! So we must be saved, right?

    It is a lie.

    Then which two do you say are not God?

    False.

    And you're wrong. You only say that because of doctrine, which you say we don't need to be saved, but then we do, but then we don't, but then we do...
    We know; that's why we follow him. So we must be saved, right?
    I think one problem here is the fact that Saxon is at a disadvantage: He doesn't really know what the authoritative, official requirements for being a Christian say, when it comes to what people absolutely must believe, at a minimum, about Jesus.

    Is there a Bible verse quoting Jesus saying "You must believe that my Father, and Me, and the Holy Ghost, are literally one being, or else you can't be a Christian." Etc. etc. So Saxon has put together, in his mind, his own personal, non-authoritative, non-official list of the requirements for being a Christian. And he judges other people by his own list, and tells one person "You are a Christian" and another person "You are NOT a Christian" according to that non-binding list.

    Personally, I would use the words of Christ on the issue as my guide.

  9. #34
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    we are not saved by faith
    we are not saved by works
    we are not saved by any combination of faith and works

    But rather we are saved by grace .
    Saved by grace though faith, and not by works.

  10. #35
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    I don't know anymore. It feels like I'm trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.
    Start to explain you side of the debate in more detail and I may understand what it is that I am saying or not saying is not understandable to you. Are you a new Mormon post 1990?



    That is a lie. The Jesus of Mormon thought is Jesus Christ of the Bible.
    Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50).

    Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Mormon thought Jesus was conceive in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. (Journal of Discourses) The Journal of Discourses p***age denies the Bible p***age that is clear that The Holy Ghost had come upon her and the power of the Highest shall overshadowed her causing conception of Jesus. Two different accounts that cannot both be true. Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus of Mormon thought.

    There are many more differences the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought and as a Mormon you should be the one that knows this.

    Check out the following and get back to me:

    "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak'" (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7).
    "It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p.26 ).



    Hey, so do we! So we must be saved, right?
    We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. (Articles of faith 8)

    This statement shows that there is a lot of doubt about the Bible so I would say that in reality Mormons don’t believe the Bible



    It is a lie.
    The book History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints records Joseph Smith saying the following in his 1844 King Follett sermon:
    "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted [prepared] a plan to create the world and people it."
    A couple of months later, on June 16, 1844, Smith said the following in another sermon:
    "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. ...

    I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. ...

    Why do I know this and you, a Mormon, don’t know it???



    Then which two do you say are not God?
    You have no idea what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is do you? As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible. There is only one God. The Father, Son and the holy Ghost are the one God.



    False.
    See Joseph Smith's Sermon on the Plurality of Gods Printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479. In it you will see the following:

    If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

    Joseph Smith taught that the father of Jesus had a father and on it goes. You will also notice the ease the Joseph discredits the Bible. You said that Mormons believe the Bible, Joseph Smith didn’t.



    And you're wrong. You only say that because of doctrine, which you say we don't need to be saved, but then we do, but then we don't, but then we do...
    We don’t need it to gain salvation, but we need it to know how to live a Christ directed Christian life. The difference between the Jesus of the Bible is gigantic. See LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 and tell me that a past president of the Mormon Church didn't believe that there is a difference between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought.



    We know; that's why we follow him. So we must be saved, right?
    Being a Mormon you will never follow the Jesus of the Bible.

  11. #36
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    Copy my list and also quote the words of Christ on the issue . Do you believe that the only thing in the Bible that is authoritative are the words of Jesus?

  12. #37
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    You have attached this to the end of my post, what are you talking about? I see no connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Start to explain you side of the debate in more detail and I may understand what it is that I am saying or not saying is not understandable to you.
    There's no debate going on here. I'm wondering how you can't see the contradictions in your statements to the effect that:
    1) Believing in Jesus is the only requirement to be saved, but there are also other requirements to be saved; and
    2) You don't need to believe any particular doctrine to be saved, but you need to believe in certain doctrines to be saved.

    Mormon thought Jesus was conceive in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father.
    That is a lie.

    There are many more differences the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought and as a Mormon you should be the one that knows this.
    The Jesus of Mormon thought and the Jesus of the Bible are one and the same. That's what I know.

    Check out the following and get back to me:

    "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak'" (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7).
    "It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p.26 ).
    100% true.

    We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. (Articles of faith 8)

    This statement shows that there is a lot of doubt about the Bible so I would say that in reality Mormons don’t believe the Bible
    No it doesn't, and you would be lying when you say that.

    As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible.
    That's just silly.

    We don’t need it to gain salvation
    Then why do we need it to gain salvation?

    Being a Mormon you will never follow the Jesus of the Bible.
    Being a Mormon I can do nothing but follow the Jesus of the Bible.

  14. #39
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    There's no debate going on here. I'm wondering how you can't see the contradictions in your statements to the effect that:
    1) Believing in Jesus is the only requirement to be saved, but there are also other requirements to be saved; and
    2) You don't need to believe any particular doctrine to be saved, but you need to believe in certain doctrines to be saved.
    I don’t know where I have said that there are other requirements to be saved, so it must be you saying that there are other requirements to be saved. Show me what you think the other requirements to be saved are.

    This is what I mean when I say you need more detail. What are the certain doctrines do you need to believe to be saved?



    That is a lie.
    Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115)

    You need to take that up with your Church leadership and if they contradict Brigham Young the Church falls because Brigham was a prophet.

    Don’t just tell me that it’s a lie, explain why it’s a lie.



    The Jesus of Mormon thought and the Jesus of the Bible are one and the same. That's what I know.
    The traditional Christ is the Christ of the Bible. We know this because that is where we get all the information about the traditional Christ. The Christ that President Hinckley spoke of comes from extra-biblical books that contradict the Bible.

    You need to show me the reasons that you “know”. When you counter me with no reason it makes it hard to carry the conversation; help me a little.



    100% true.
    Which confirms what I have been saying, there is a different Mormon Jesus compared with the Jesus of the Bible.



    No it doesn't, and you would be lying when you say that.
    Tell me about it. “No it doesn’t” won’t carry the conversation. Why would I be lying when Articles of faith 8 sets up doubt of the accuracy of the Bible??



    That's just silly.
    What’s just silly? More information. If I didn’t have to second guess what you are trying to get across to me we may be able to make some progress.



    Then why do we need it to gain salvation?
    This is another spot that more information would be nice. What are you talking about??

    I said we don’t need doctrine to gain salvation and then you ask, “Then why do we need it to gain salvation?” As far as I have already stated, we don’t, so you tell me the answer to your question.



    Being a Mormon I can do nothing but follow the Jesus of the Bible.
    That is impressive, seeing Mormon teaching about Jesus comes from extra-biblical books and contradicts just about everything the bible teaches about Jesus. The Mormon Jesus is a man that became a god and the Bible Jesus is God became a man. There is a lot more but I won’t waste my time just for you to comment that it is a lie with no explanation.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    I don’t know where I have said that there are other requirements to be saved
    Several times in this thread. Every time I point out that according to your one and only criterion Mormons must be saved, you counter with several doctrines that we must also believe to be saved.

    Don’t just tell me that it’s a lie, explain why it’s a lie.
    It's a lie because it is not Mormon thought that Jesus was conceived in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father. Didn't you know that?

    The traditional Christ is the Christ of the Bible. We know this because that is where we get all the information about the traditional Christ.
    False. Many of your beliefs about Christ come from extra-Biblical creeds and councils.

    You need to show me the reasons that you “know”.
    So you really don't know what we believe? Isn't it a bit presumptuous to attack a church when you don't even know their doctrine?

    Tell me about it. “No it doesn’t” won’t carry the conversation. Why would I be lying when Articles of faith 8 sets up doubt of the accuracy of the Bible??
    What are the first two words of AoF 8? Explain how belief = doubt.

    What’s just silly? More information. If I didn’t have to second guess what you are trying to get across to me we may be able to make some progress.
    "As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible." Remember that?

    This is another spot that more information would be nice. What are you talking about??
    I'm talking about you flip-flopping back and forth on whether we need to believe certain doctrines to be saved. For example, in post #5 you said we need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer. Then in post #10 you said we are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved.

  16. #41
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    Several times in this thread. Every time I point out that according to your one and only criterion Mormons must be saved, you counter with several doctrines that we must also believe to be saved.
    Let us keep in mind the context as to what I have said. Remember, that I do not believe that Mormons are Christians. I do not believe that Mormons are involved with the one God that is the only God that exists. I also don’t believe that Mormons take the Bible seriously. See LSD Articles of Faith number 8.

    When I say that all a person needs to do in order to gain salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ You can disagree as much as you want, but you cannot think for one minute that I am relating my statement to Mormon doctrine. This is where you are being confused. In order to understand what I am saying you need to compare the statements that I am making with the Bible scripture that I offer as support. Again, you do not have to agree with what I say.

    It would be good if when you say that I am lying that you support that comment with a statement from the Mormon so called scripture. This is what makes a conversation instead of me continuously repeating myself and answering unnecessary questions.

    When do I counter with several doctrines that you must also believe to be saved? Give me some examples. You must be misunderstanding because if there is only one thing to do in order to gain salvation, there is nothing else to do to gain salvation. You don’t seem to be able to conceive a before salvation and an after salvation existence in earthly life.



    It's a lie because it is not Mormon thought that Jesus was conceived in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father. Didn't you know that?
    I don’t agree. It is a disagreement. We can disagree until the cows come home but that does not make it a lie. If that was the case then you would be equally a liar because what you say does not line up with Bible thought.

    Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115)

    It is up to you to tell me what Brigham said and meant by, “it was the result of natural action”. This sounds like sexual relations to me. What does the result of natural action sound like to you?



    False. Many of your beliefs about Christ come from extra-Biblical creeds and councils.
    Where have I quoted any Creeds and councils as support for Bible statements? I do not look outside the Bible for support of clear statements.



    So you really don't know what we believe? Isn't it a bit presumptuous to attack a church when you don't even know their doctrine?
    What makes you think that I don’t know what the LDS teach? If I say something and can support it from LDS sources then I know it, especially if you can’t or won't counter is with more than your mantra, ”it’s a lie”. Start showing me why it isn't true.



    What are the first two words of AoF 8? Explain how belief = doubt.
    We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. (Articles of faith 8)

    It isn't the first two words that offend the Bible but the phrase, “as far as it is translated correctly” leaves the Bible open to suspicion at any time that anyone disagrees with Mormon doctrine. As far as translation goes there are no reliable versions of the Bible that are in disagreement as far as translation goes.



    "As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible." Remember that?
    I remember that. Now it is up to you to show me that what the LDS teach is not contrary to the teaching of the Bible.



    I'm talking about you flip-flopping back and forth on whether we need to believe certain doctrines to be saved. For example, in post #5 you said we need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer. Then in post #10 you said we are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved.
    Where did I say, “We need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer” in order to gain salvation. I was commenting on the fact if we believe in a false Jesus we believe for nothing as believing on a false Jesus will not result in salvation. My statement, “we are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved", still stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Let us keep in mind the context as to what I have said. Remember, that I do not believe that Mormons are Christians. I do not believe that Mormons are involved with the one God that is the only God that exists. I also don’t believe that Mormons take the Bible seriously. See LSD Articles of Faith number 8.
    Irrelevant to your self-contradictions and flip-flopping.

    When I say that all a person needs to do in order to gain salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ You can disagree as much as you want, but you cannot think for one minute that I am relating my statement to Mormon doctrine.
    Earlier you said that the requirements are not different based on denomination. So either your statement applies to Mormons, or you're contradicting yourself.

    When do I counter with several doctrines that you must also believe to be saved? Give me some examples.
    Post #5.

    I don’t agree. It is a disagreement.
    You don't get to disagree. It's an objective fact.

    What makes you think that I don’t know what the LDS teach?
    Your statements in this thread.

    It isn't the first two words that offend the Bible but the phrase, “as far as it is translated correctly” leaves the Bible open to suspicion at any time that anyone disagrees with Mormon doctrine.
    No it doesn't. It says nothing of the kind. You're just making stuff up.

    I remember that. Now it is up to you to show me that what the LDS teach is not contrary to the teaching of the Bible.
    No, it's up to you to back up your claims.

    Where did I say, “We need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer” in order to gain salvation.
    Post #5.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Saxon:

    One question:

    Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    dberry is posting his ignorance about James 2:26 again. . .

    As he has been shown, FAITH BRINGS WORKS, ALWAYS. The ONLY exceptions would be those UNABLE TO DO works such as blind, deaf mutes, folks who go into comas, etc.

    So berry, IF a man receives Jesus Christ on his deathbed, do you think HIS faith is dead to GOD?

    Oh, so that is NOT what it means?

    I suspect you should think that one through a bit more, berry. . .

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    Okay. Mormons believe, so we must be saved, right?
    mormons believe in joey smith's 'spirit-brother-of-satan-jesus.'
    Muslims believe in their 'alah'
    Others believe in baal.

    WHO or WHAT you believe IN matters. No, mormons, muslims, and worshipers of baal are NOT saved.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    mormons believe in joey smith's 'spirit-brother-of-satan-jesus.'
    Muslims believe in their 'alah'
    Others believe in baal.
    trinitarian calvinists believe in their "3-in-one" paradox who condemns most humans to hell before it even creates them, and does so for no sensible, rational, fair reason.

    WHO or WHAT you believe IN matters.
    So trinitarian calvinists are not saved, if people can't be saved if they have some incorrect beliefs about God.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    WHO or WHAT you believe IN matters. No, mormons, muslims, and worshipers of baal are NOT saved.
    Okay, so believing in Jesus Christ is not enough to be saved. Then list for us the additional requirements.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    Okay, so believing in Jesus Christ is not enough to be saved. Then list for us the additional requirements.
    SaSalvation isn't by faith
    salvation isn't by works
    nor is it due to a mix of faith and works

    salvation is only by Grace though faith and not by works so that no man might Boast he has salvation via his own deeds

  23. #48
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Saxon:

    One question:

    Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Always the same question! In the context of James 2:26, faith is always ***ociated with works.
    Then faith alone theology cannot be true.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000FF]dberry is posting his ignorance about James 2:26 again. . .As he has been shown, FAITH BRINGS WORKS, ALWAYS.
    As the scriptures show--it's dead faith without obedience to Christ:

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Do you believe one can be saved through dead faith?

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    No... Only your interpretation of the Bible is all. Luckily you have been unable to even convince your own fellow Christians of this nonsense. Which is why I wonder why you are here? Do you believe the Mormons are more gullible than they are?

    Wait a minute, look at your thread ***le, there is nothing in it about faith, or grace.... just believe. You seem to be changing your tune once the fallacy of your theology has been exposed.

    I never said anything about obligation, that is your strawman that you created in order to divert attention from your failed argument.

    True, but that has nothing to do with your ***ertion.

    I actually meant to be amusing, however the problem is that you did not write "Believe"
    The fact that this went right over your head only demonstrates your inability to comprehend the simplist of statements, let alone something complicated like the Bible.


    You stated all one had to do is to believe to be saved...
    Its been put forward to you numerous times that we as Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, ergo... We are saved, right?
    If not, why not?

    This is where you then start adding on all kinds of qualifiers and actions we as Mormons must first do to be saved. Anyone who has read this thread can see your hypocrisy.

    This just points to another one of your hypocrisies. 85% of people who call themselves Christian see Faith Alone AKA, "Cheap Grace" as a heresy, yet you still see them as saved. In fact, if you truely believe that works has nothing to do with salvation, then the fact that we and the vast majority of Christian faiths believe they do, and practice such; will not in any way change whether we are saved or not.... So why bother telling us about it, if it changes nothing anyway.

    The way I see it, is if we are right in that we need both works and faith to be saved, then we will be saved if we have both, yet you will not be saved because you lack works.
    On the other hand if you are right and faith/belief is all that was needed to be saved, then we are still saved because we still at least have faith....

    It's a win-win for us, as we have both bases covered.
    However, you've only got 50%-50% chance at salvation.
    Hey, "theway," aren't you permanently banned from CARM for using double posting names?
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

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