Belive And Be Saved

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

The faith GOD gives us in Jesus Christ is NEVER dead.

The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works. Isn't that labeled a dead faith in the Biblical text?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Works follow.

***igning an ordering arrangement to protect a faith alone theology is nothing less than boundary maintenance. The scriptures state faith without works is dead--end of story.

Perhaps if you knew MORE of the Bible than just that one isolated verse. . .you wouldn't be so confused.

You aren't thinking Christ was confused--are you?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Saxon]

Again--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I take it that you never read the rest of the post with any ability to comprehend. Faith does not save. Grace does not save. It is God alone that saves and that is only because of his at***ude of grace that he has for man. There is no way that a human can ever be worthy of salvation that is why it is by God’s grace that he saves anyone.

In your form of salvation, after all that you can do, how do you know that you have done all that you can do? You’re working for salvation is at best, a turkey shoot. You will never know if you are saved let alone having reached exaltation. There seems to be a difference according to LDS web sites.

You are taking James 2:24 out of context. Are the unsaved ever justified? No! Justification is after salvation.

What is exaltation? (https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-pr...ation?lang=eng)
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

Salvation (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/salvation)
To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

I believe Jill was very clear in telling all here that we should not drag problems and issues with people from other Forums back here on to this forum...

We all saw this right?...we all understand this correct?.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I take it that you never read the rest of the post with any ability to comprehend. Faith does not save. Grace does not save.

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is God alone that saves and that is only because of his at***ude of grace that he has for man. There is no way that a human can ever be worthy of salvation that is why it is by God’s grace that he saves anyone.

No one has argued that God saves by His grace--only that it's the obedient to Christ whom receives that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

In your form of salvation, after all that you can do,

Would that be this form of salvation?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

how do you know that you have done all that you can do?

The same way one can know he has enough faith to be saved.

You’re working for salvation is at best, a turkey shoot.

Did these work for salvation?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In the faith alone theology--anyone who believes they have to obey Christ with any act of obedience--are those who believe they have to work of salvation. The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation without works--IE--salvation through a dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Saxon]

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Good, now tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.

No one has argued that God saves by His grace--only that it's the obedient to Christ whom receives that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It isn’t obedience that causes God to save but love. (See John 3:16) Tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Would that be this form of salvation?
Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

No.

The same way one can know he has enough faith to be saved.

Don’t stop there, tell me about how you know you have enough faith to be saved. This is what you always do, you make sure that you never answer a question or give an incomplete answer. Are you afraid to stand on your beliefs??

Did these work for salvation?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In the faith alone theology--anyone who believes they have to obey Christ with any act of obedience--are those who believe they have to work of salvation. The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation without works--IE--salvation through a dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ephesians 2:9 says that salvation is not of works, so they did not work for salvation.

You are beating the “dead faith” to death. You still don’t work for salvation. After you are saved then you do the works. That is the Bible way.

The LDS way is work until you are dead and then if you have enough works you might have made it. In reality, the Bible way, you will find that your works to earn salvation are all futile as the Bible has not changed and it still says “not of works”.

[Phoenix]

The salient question is this:

Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life?

The answer has to be either "yes" or "no."

Like many other Christians--probably the majority of Christians--the LDS say the answer is "yes."

What is YOUR answer?

[Saxon]

The salient question is this:

Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life?

The answer has to be either "yes" or "no."

Like many other Christians--probably the majority of Christians--the LDS say the answer is "yes."

What is YOUR answer?

The answer is more than a yes or no. If I said yes, then you would think that I have caved to LDS thought that there is works that will cause God to have to save you. The Bible still says not of works.

If I say no, then you will think that I follow the Calvinist thought of predestination. I do not.

The only thing that a person must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

My answer is that there is nothing that you can do that will place God into a position that he is obligated to save.

Grace does not save. Faith does not save. Salvation is a gift of God, God saves because of his at***ude of grace towards mankind and that is because we cannot earn salvation. God’s love of the human race is what drives God to save. (See John 3:16) God saves by grace

What do you believe grace to be?

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The answer is more than a yes or no. If I said yes, then you would think that I have caved to LDS thought that there is works that will cause God to have to save you. The Bible still says not of works.

You have about 3 problems in that part of your post:

1. There can't be any other answer than "yes" or "no" the question, which was
"Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life? "

2. When Paul said that works cannot save a person, he was referring to the works mentioned in the Jewish Torah. The LDS agree with Paul.

3. Jesus, and the LDS, believe that Jesus was made the author of salvation to all who OBEY Him in faith. There are far more Bible verses that mention obedience as a condition for eternal life, than there are that mention faith alone as the sole condition for eternal life. (Spoiler alert: There aren't ANY verses that say that faith is the sole requirement.)

4. Just as a reminder, LDS DON'T teach or believe that works will cause God to save you.

If I say no, then you will think that I follow the Calvinist thought of predestination. I do not.

Not predestination per se, but the Calvinist dogma of cheap grace, where there is nothing a person can do, or should do, in order to make grace efficacious towards his salvation.

The only thing that a person must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

You added the word "only" but the Bible doesn't have it. Rev. 22 says you'll be cursed if you add to the Bible, according to some Christians.

My answer is that there is nothing that you can do that will place God into a position that he is obligated to save.

You contradict your answer below.

Grace does not save.

So you don't believe the Bible where Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith?

...God saves because of his at***ude of grace towards mankind and that is because we cannot earn salvation. God’s love of the human race is what drives God to save.

You believe that God is DRIVEN to save people. Isn't that the same as saying the God is obligated to save people? No matter how you word it, it's against His nature NOT to save people, right? So God is basically COMPELLED to save people. It's integral to who He is. He can't NOT save people just like He can't not be a liar.

The question to ask, then, is: By what criteria does God decide who to save, and who to not save? The Bible says it's based on faith and obedience. Obedience-only salvation, if you have no faith in Christ and the God who sent Him, is false. So is faith-only salvation, that has no obedience--just ask James.

(See John 3:16) God saves by grace
What do you believe grace to be?

God is the person or being who saves, yes. Grace is WHAT saves us. Grace is what God applies to those who faithfully obey Him, and that results in their salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

No one has argued that God saves by His grace--only that it's the obedient to Christ whom receives that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Would that be this form of salvation?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The same way one can know he has enough faith to be saved.

Did these work for salvation?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In the faith alone theology--anyone who believes they have to obey Christ with any act of obedience--are those who believe they have to work of salvation. The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation without works--IE--salvation through a dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Originally Posted by Saxon

Good, now tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.

The forgiveness of sins is God's grace, and without it, salvation is not possible--which goes to them that obey Him, and walk in His light:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

It isn’t obedience that causes God to save but love. (See John 3:16)

How does that negate the fact God does not give His salvational grace to the disobedient?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.

God's grace to mankind includes the gift of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In your estimation--is that reference to faith ---a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26--King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Don’t stop there, tell me about how you know you have enough faith to be saved.

Matthew 7:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[Saxon]

The forgiveness of sins is God's grace, and without it, salvation is not possible--which goes to them that obey Him, and walk in His light:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The forgiveness of sins is because God has the grace to forgive. Forgiveness is not grace but because of God’s grace.

How does that negate the fact God does not give His salvational grace to the disobedient?

On the contrary, God saves the disobedient. Show me any lost person that is obedient to God and I will show you the figment of your imagination.

God's grace to mankind includes the gift of the Holy Ghost:

Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The gift of the Holy Ghost comes with salvation that comes by the grace of God. The Holy Ghost is not the grace of God but is given because God has the grace to give the Holy Ghost to the saved.

In your estimation--is that reference to faith ---a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26--King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The reference to John 3:16 is made with the Fact that it is a faith that is pleasing to God. Again, faith or believing in Christ does not put God in a position that he is obligated to save any one.

You comment is out of biblical context because the Bible is clear that salvation is not of works but is a gift from God. You do not work for a gift. A gift is free of any cost or earning of it by the receiver. The only works that are acceptable to God are the works that are done after we have been created in Christ Jesus, saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

That does not answer the question, how you know you have enough faith to be saved?

[Saxon]

You have about 3 problems in that part of your post:

1. There can't be any other answer than "yes" or "no" the question, which was
"Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life? "

Like I said, if I answer yes or no, you are free to jump to any conclusion you want to. I answered the way I did so you will know what I believe, not what you wish to think I believe.

2. When Paul said that works cannot save a person, he was referring to the works mentioned in the Jewish Torah. The LDS agree with Paul.

When Paul said not of works he meant not of works. There is no hint in the text that there was anything more to be added or it would have been added. The terms grace and gift totally eliminate any type of works that you care to mention.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

3. Jesus, and the LDS, believe that Jesus was made the author of salvation to all who OBEY Him in faith. There are far more Bible verses that mention obedience as a condition for eternal life, than there are that mention faith alone as the sole condition for eternal life. (Spoiler alert: There aren't ANY verses that say that faith is the sole requirement.)

When Paul said not of works he meant not of works. There is no hint in the text that there was anything more to be added or it would have been added. The terms grace and gift totally eliminate any type of works that you care to mention.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As fare as your spoiler alert goes I have said many times that faith does not save anyone. No spoiler here.

4. Just as a reminder, LDS DON'T teach or believe that works will cause God to save you.

If you don’t do any works, then what? Will you be saved in accordance with LDS doctrine?

Not predestination per se, but the Calvinist dogma of cheap grace, where there is nothing a person can do, or should do, in order to make grace efficacious towards his salvation.

Like I said, I don’t believe there doctrine of salvation or anything in TULIP.

You added the word "only" but the Bible doesn't have it. Rev. 22 says you'll be cursed if you add to the Bible, according to some Christians.

This forum doesn’t cons***ute the Bible. I said, “The only thing that a person must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)” The reason that I said only is because that is the only thing that a person must do. There is nothing else that can be done. Believing does not save anyone, God saves because he has an at***ude of grace toward mankind, so by god’s grace, god saves us.

I am not worried about one word on a forum. I would be worried if I were participating with a group that has added three books that are in contradiction to the Bible. To me, that is a worry.

You contradict your answer below.

Which one?

So you don't believe the Bible where Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith?

Of course I believe the Bible where Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith. How would you ever come to that conclusion? I have quoted and explained my belief of that statement just about every third or fourth time I post to the Mormon forum. But I shouldn’t be surprised as I don’t think you pay attention to much of what I say.

God saves because of his at***ude of grace towards mankind and that is because we cannot earn salvation.

[Saxon]

You believe that God is DRIVEN to save people. Isn't that the same as saying the God is obligated to save people? No matter how you word it, it's against His nature NOT to save people, right? So God is basically COMPELLED to save people. It's integral to who He is. He can't NOT save people just like He can't not be a liar.

Driven, determined, motivated, or ambitious does not equate with obligated. Compelled is also a good term. Being compelled by love does not equal an obligation. God will not save people that do not believe.

The question to ask, then, is: By what criteria does God decide who to save, and who to not save? The Bible says it's based on faith and obedience. Obedience-only salvation, if you have no faith in Christ and the God who sent Him, is false. So is faith-only salvation, that has no obedience--just ask James.

It is based on believing. God, by his grace saves those that believe. You ask James if the lost are justified before they are saved? The saved are justified not the lost.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is p***ed from death unto life.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

God is the person or being who saves, yes. Grace is WHAT saves us. Grace is what God applies to those who faithfully obey Him, and that results in their salvation.

Don’t be foolish, God saves. Does God have a great large jar of grace to slather on people and the chemical reaction saves them??

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The forgiveness of sins is God's grace, and without it, salvation is not possible--which goes to them that obey Him, and walk in His light:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



How does that negate the fact God does not give His salvational grace to the disobedient?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Originally Posted by Saxon

Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The forgiveness of sins is because God has the grace to forgive. Forgiveness is not grace but because of God’s grace.

I've never heard a Christian deny the forgiveness of sins is not God's grace to mankind.

On the contrary, God saves the disobedient.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Show me any lost person that is obedient to God and I will show you the figment of your imagination.

That only connects obedience with salvation.

Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The gift of the Holy Ghost comes with salvation that comes by the grace of God. The Holy Ghost is not the grace of God but is given because God has the grace to give the Holy Ghost to the saved.

So--one is saved without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Whenever the faith alone are backed into a corner with obvious contradictions to the Biblical text--it seems they make up all sorts of contortions to the scriptures to fit their theology. The fact is--the Biblical text defy faith alone theology.

[Saxon]

I've never heard a Christian deny the forgiveness of sins is not God's grace to mankind.

You still have not told me what grace is to you, what does grace mean?

Forgiveness of sins in itself is not God’s grace. Forgiveness of sins comes because God has an at***ude of grace toward man and it is because of the grace that God has toward man the God forgives sins. You are always detracting from God to something less.

That only connects obedience with salvation.

The saved are obedient, the lost are not. What comes first, salvation of the lost disobedient soul or obedience to the lost soul that can never be obedient in a lost condition?

So--one is saved without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

No. The Holy Ghost indwells the believer the moment he believes.

Whenever the faith alone are backed into a corner with obvious contradictions to the Biblical text--it seems they make up all sorts of contortions to the scriptures to fit their theology. The fact is--the Biblical text defy faith alone theology.

Faith alone for what? You never answer that question either.

[Saxon]

Grace is given to us through Jesus Christ. It is the difference that is made up through His Atonement which can allow us to walk back into the presence of the Father. One confusion among traditional Christians is they treat the words "faith" and "grace" as interchangeable which they are not.

Yes, grace is given to us, but what IS grace according to you? You say it is the difference made up through his atonement. The difference of what?

Christians do not treat faith and grace as interchangeable. Man is to put faith out to Jesus Christ and God puts out grace toward man. There is a huge difference that any Christian clearly knows. Who are you to tell how a Christian treats faith and grace when you have no idea what faith and grace are from a biblical point of view.

The scriptures say we are saved by grace through faith, but it never says it is by faith alone. Whenever the scriptures say we aren't saved by works it strictly refers to the works of the Law of Moses. James teaches that faith is dead without works. You can use any scripture you want to try and prove otherwise but I believe all will agree that the scriptures were not given to us to be used against themselves. All the scriptures agree in one and I agree with them: it is never by one thing alone.

I am sorry that you think that way. The statement, “not of works” (See Ephesians 2:9) leaves no room for that kind or a thought. The text does not even hint at that. If you knew what the English term grace and gift meant (See Ephesians 2:8) you would not come to that conclusion. Ephesians 2:10 informs us that the good works that God would have us do comes after we are created in Christ Jesus (saved). You need to understand what a Christian means by the English term saved, before you presume to tell us what we mean.

I agree that the scriptures were not given to us to be used against themselves but I am not sure that you believe it when you can read Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and still believe that you have to work to get saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace is given because of faith; that same faith, however, MUST be accompanied by works of righteousness. Paul, to the Romans, said grace is given for obedience to the faith. To obey is to take action. Jesus said not everyone who confesses His name shall be saved, but those who "do the will of [his] Father which is in heaven."

You are confused as to what salvation is compared to justification. The lost are not justified and the lost will never be justified as long as they are in a lost condition. Salvation comes first and then justification of the saved person.

In Ephesians 2:8, when Paul says faith do you suspect that he is speaking of justification or salvation? When he says saved through faith he is speaking of salvation. Do we really have to second guess Paul in order to find out if he is speaking of a faith that is acceptable to God? If you look at what he wrote you should see that it isn’t faith that saves. For that matter it isn’t grace that saves either. You can have all the faith that you want that is acceptable to God and that will not save. The last statement in verse 8 says that it is the GIFT OF GOD. God saves. There is nothing that a person can do that will put God into a position that he is obligated to save. Not of works.

To those who say it is by faith alone, you may not realize it but you too believe you must "do" something to obtain grace. When the Holy Ghost bears testimony and provides you with faith, you must still accept that faith. To accept it is to do a work. Salvation never comes to those who do nothing; will a spiritual couch potato enter the kingdom of God? Never unless he or she repents and accepts the gospel as it has been restored.

Find out what the English term grace means and you will find out that you cannot obtain grace by any effort or work.

Explain how accepting faith is going to get you saved when, as you claim, it is a work and the Bible is quite clear that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. You said above that scriptures should not be used against themselves, why do you fight so hard against Ephesians 2:9?

Restored?? When was it ever in need of restoration? Matthew 24:35 says that the words of Jesus will not p*** away. Mark and Luke confirm this to be so. There is no way that a restoration was needed.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall p*** away, but my words shall not p*** away.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall p*** away: but my words shall not p*** away.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall p*** away: but my words shall not p*** away.

Traditionalists say "just believe" but when we Latter-Day Saints say we believe, you extend your statement to a paragraph of "No, you must believe this, this, this, and that with this, that, and that. You have to get rid of this, that, this belief, and that belief."

Read the first post and then tell me that you need to do more than believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Don’t use other people as an excuse, you can read. Matthew and Mark have warned that there are false Christs. The only stipulation is that you believe on the Christ of the Bible, not the false Christs that come from man’s vile imaginings.

As far as getting rid of other beliefs, it is a matter of rejecting false beliefs and retaining truth.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

To believe/believe on Jesus Christ and to believe in Jesus Christ are entirely different things. To believe in Him is to believe that He exists, to believe Him is to believe in His teachings are true and to display through an exemplary life as a disciple. For example, you must be baptized by one who holds the priesthood.

To believe on Jesus Christ and to believe in Jesus Christ are exactly the same thing.

And what is the priesthood that you speak of? The order of Melchizedek? That can’t be as there is only one priest of that order and that is Jesus.

By the Law of Moses each new priest had to be a descendant of Aaron and they ***umed the priesthood because of the law of succession made necessary by death; that is, regardless of how personally holy or desirous his predecessor was in remaining on and on as priest, they could not continue in the office beyond death. In contrast, the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek rests on the power of His endless and sinless life. God made Him a "priest forever". Since He would never die in this office, His eternal priesthood would make unnecessary the appointment of another priest after Him.

Any Christian can baptize because the believers priesthood is a royal priesthood (See 1 Peter 2:9). Why is LDS doctrine always contrary to the Bible??

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

To say grace is given for obedience to the faith isn't a works based salvation. You must understand that a variable factor to an end result is not the same as the causation of the result. For example, eating healthy causes one to have better health. The food themselves are variable factors to the desired health but not the causation; the cause of the positive health comes from the vitamins, minerals, and nutrients found within the foods. Works and faith are both factors of salvation but it is the interconnection of both principles that are the causation for the Atonement of Jesus Christ to take effect in it's fullness so we are to obtain the grace it provides.

Now you are saying it isn’t a works based salvation, but your doctrines require works for salvation. Make up your mind. You can’t have it both ways. Your verbal gymnastics won’t cut it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I've never heard a Christian deny the forgiveness of sins is not God's grace to mankind.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

That only connects obedience with salvation.

So--one is saved without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Whenever the faith alone are backed into a corner with obvious contradictions to the Biblical text--it seems they make up all sorts of contortions to the scriptures to fit their theology. The fact is--the Biblical text defy faith alone theology.

Originally Posted by Saxon

You still have not told me what grace is to you, what does grace mean?

God's grace, for me--is God doing something for us that we can't do for ourselves.

Forgiveness of sins in itself is not God’s grace. Forgiveness of sins comes because God has an at***ude of grace toward man and it is because of the grace that God has toward man the God forgives sins. You are always detracting from God to something less.

Again--I've never heard a Christian deny that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace. How are you relating a belief that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace to man--as "detracting from God to something less." For me--anyone who denies the forgiveness of sins is God's grace--is denying the mercies of God.

The saved are obedient, the lost are not. What comes first, salvation of the lost disobedient soul or obedience to the lost soul that can never be obedient in a lost condition?

So--you believe these were saved prior to the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

No. The Holy Ghost indwells the believer the moment he believes.

Are these the ones who believed?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

If so--then repentance and water baptism becomes integral components to the term "believe"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".

Faith alone for what? You never answer that question either.

Salvation. If you have followed my posts--my concern is those of the faith alone theology preach a salvation through a faith without works--or--a faith that is alone for salvation:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Christians do not treat faith and grace as interchangeable. Man is to put faith out to Jesus Christ and God puts out grace toward man.

Is this an example of faith in Christ for mankind--and God's grace?

Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Saxon]

God's grace, for me--is God doing something for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I can understand what you are saying and I can see it also. I don’t believe that grace is an action, I believe that grace is an at***ude that God has towards man and it, the at***ude of grace is why God does something for us that we can’t do ourselves, like salvation.

Again--I've never heard a Christian deny that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace. How are you relating a belief that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace to man--as "detracting from God to something less." For me--anyone who denies the forgiveness of sins is God's grace--is denying the mercies of God.

Again, Forgiveness of sins is not grace, but the outcome from a God of grace.

So--you believe these were saved prior to the Holy Ghost?

How does that answer my question? What comes first, salvation of the lost disobedient soul or obedience to the lost soul that can never be obedient in a lost condition?

I try to answer your questions, how about you answering mine??

What do you mean “prior to the Holy Ghost?” The Holy Ghost is not in those that are in a lost condition.

Are these the ones who believed?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

If so--then repentance and water baptism becomes integral components to the term "believe"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".

Yes they are the ones that are saved. They repented and were baptized because they we saved, not to get saved. Believing came first, then salvation then repentance and baptism. The engine is part of the car, repentance and baptism are after salvation. When you are saved you are as saved as you ever will be. After salvation happens then you repent and get baptized. The lost won’t repent and being baptized if you are not saved is totally useless unless you are grimy and some of the grime gets washed off.

Salvation. If you have followed my posts--my concern is those of the faith alone theology preach a salvation through a faith without works--or--a faith that is alone for salvation:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again, faith does not save anyone. That problem is solved. Justification id after salvation. The lost are never justified while they are in a lost condition. Works come after salvation. Salvation is “not of works”.

The problem you need to deal with is your unbelief in what the Bible is clearly and plainly saying, salvation is the gift of God, not of works.

[Saxon]

This is something that is done after salvation, Acts 2:38. A person has placed faith in Christ and God, by his grace, saved that person. After salvation we cannot put away faith in God and God does not stop being graceful to us. This continues as long as we are in Christ and physically alive. you have to differentiate between before salvation and after salvation.

[alanmolstad]

it goes like this...


We are saved by Grace 'though" faith, and not by any works at all...none...zip...zero.

This means that the only channel that grace takes to save men is via 'faith"....and not by "works"

This also is supports by the idea that faith without works is a dead faith, in that the one single "work" Christ talked about being needed is to "Believe in the Son"

This is also why Mormons have dead faith, for they have no works.

For the single work they should have is missing,m ( ie- To believe in the Jesus of the Bible.)

Mormons dont a living faith, they have traded the Jesus of the Bible for the false Jesus taught by Joe Smith...
(And Joe Smith just dreamed up his false idea about Jesus just to get laid...)


So when a Mormon dies, this is why they go directly to Hell and suffer forever in torment, for they had "Dead Faith" lacking works...

[alanmolstad]

Mormons are sent to hell due to all of them having Dead faith....(a faith without works is "Dead Faith")

For they have rejected the only 'work" Christ talked about that was to be sought, and that is the 'work" to believe in the true Son as taught in the Bible.

All Mormons reject the true Christ and have put all their hopes and prayers in a false Jesus that Joe Smith invented so that he could get girls into his bed.


This is why all Mormons end up toasting he Hell's fires, for they all have rejected the one true path to salvation and have been led into the fire by the guiding hands of a false prophet name Joe Smith...
Now Im sure at the final Judgement, all the Mormons will be shocked to find they have been condemned to eternal ****ation, and my try to say, "But did not all us Mormons do all these mighty works in your name?...did we not go door to door?..did we not travel across the world in your name?"

The problem is, they never knew the true Jesus of the Bible...

All the mighty works of the Mormons dont mean squat!
they still are condemned to hell's fire regardless.

[Saxon]

The difference of God's perfection and our lack thereof.

Christians DO interchange faith and grace. Every Christian I've come across has said in one sentence that we are saved by grace alone and a few minutes later say by faith alone. Faith and grace are principles that are simple to understand. Why you don't think I know what they are, I don't know. I do know what they are though from a true standpoint of the scriptures. I don't rely on people's interpretations, I rely on the Spirit of God.

I can’t speak for every Christian on the face of the Earth and you can’t either. Grace and faith are not interchangeable. Check an English dictionary.

I haven’t found a Mormon that knows what grace is. If you knew what grace is you wouldn’t be so stubborn about works and salvation. Grace being in the salvation equation automatically eliminates any ability of works to play a role in gaining salvation.

Read all of Paul's writings. He is speaking about the Law of Moses's works. That is evident. Anyone can take one verse and use it out of context such as you did by using Ephesians 2:9 by itself. In other words, because I believe different from you, I'm somehow automatically wrong. Because I'm a Mormon. I understand what these words mean.

That is just not true. Paul is talking about any attempt to earn salvation. What part of “not of works” do you not understand?

Explain to me how I have taken Ephesians 2:9 out of context. Don’t avoid this by asking another question.

I don’t believe that you can read Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and understand what it says because your Church teaches that they are the only true church and everyone else is wrong. Whenever the Bible says anything that is contrary to LDS teaching, articles of Faith number 8 comes into play. The whole Mormon population has been inoculated against sound Bible teaching.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not just anyone can baptize. Anyone outside the LDS Church is not part of the royal priesthood. They perform baths and that's it. Those "baptisms" are not valid in heaven's eyes. I am one of many who hold the Melchizedek priesthood.

Another denial of clear Bible teaching. 1 Peter 2:8 to 10 states that the people of God are a royal priesthood. You nor any other Mormon do not hold the Melchizedek priesthood; that belongs to Jesus himself and no other.

By the Law of Moses each new priest had to be a descendant of Aaron and they ***umed the priesthood because of the law of succession made necessary by death; that is, regardless of how personally holy or desirous his predecessor was in remaining on and on as priest, they could not continue in the office beyond death. In contrast, the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek rests on the power of His endless and sinless life. God made Him a "priest forever". Since He would never die in this office, His eternal priesthood would make unnecessary the appointment of another priest after Him. (See Hebrews 7:21 to 24)


1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

I was very clear about how our beliefs are not a works based salvation while, at the same time, are not the heretical "do nothing" beliefs.

So how does your not of works but work for salvation work? You contradict yourself in one short statement. You are unbelievable!

[Saxon]

A variable isn't the same as a cause.

Every Mormon I know knows what grace is, myself included. You don't understand it because you do not have the Holy Ghost or the spirit of revelation, which is by the Holy Ghost, to guide you.

The Bible concept of grace is totally different than the Mormon concept.

Grace (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/grace)
A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by His atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and ***istance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the Fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.


Grace Defined (https://www.christiancourier.com/art...g-of-grace-the)
“Grace” derives from the Greek, charis. In secular Greek, charis was related to chairo, “to rejoice.” As far back as Homer it denoted “sweetness” or “attractiveness.” It came to signify “favor,” “goodwill,” and “lovingkindness” — especially as granted by a superior to an inferior.

In the New Testament, “grace” (156 times) takes on a special redemptive sense in which God makes available his favor on behalf of sinners, who actually do not deserve it.

There is tremendous emphasis in the New Testament upon the fact that human salvation is the result of Heaven’s grace. This beautiful truth should never be minimized. At the same time, it must not be perverted. Unfortunately, much too often those with only a superficial concept of “grace” have hijacked the term and foisted upon it a sense alien to scriptural teaching. Let us consider some of the precious Bible truths ***ociated with the concept of salvation by grace.


Grace Is Not Earned (https://www.christiancourier.com/art...g-of-grace-the)
Grace excludes merit. We must constantly remind ourselves that humanity is not deserving of salvation. No one can “earn” pardon by works of human merit. If such were the case, we could boast regarding our redemption; however, that is impossible (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Even if one were able to perform everything God commands, he still must regard himself as an “unprofitable servant” (Luke 17:10). Jesus taught that our sins have put us head-over-heels in debt, and no person has the innate ability to liquidate that obligation (cf. Matthew 18:24-27).

When this concept is truly grasped, service to Almighty God will flow with a freshness and zeal that invigorates the soul. Doubtless a failure to fathom the true significance of grace is the reason many church members are spiritually lethargic.

How do you come to that conclusion that I do not have the Holy Ghost or the spirit of revelation, which is by the Holy Ghost, to guide me?

You mean don't answer questions with a question? You realize the Savior answered with questions, right? I already explained it to you but you refuse to listen to anyone who is a Mormon. Read all of Paul's writings. He speaks of the law of Moses. It was this same Paul who said grace is given for obedience to the faith.

You’re not the Saviour and the question I ask is never answered by your counter question.

Yes, Paul speaks of the Law of Moses but that does not mean that every time works is mentioned, it is referring to the law of Moses.

Yes, God gives grace to the obedient, but being obedient is not putting God into a position of being obligated to save. Salvation is not of works, it is the GIFT of God. You can obey all you want but that is not going the obligate God to save you.

"Whenever the Bible says anything contrary to the LDS Church" That's your problem, you believe we are always wrong but the fact is there are zero imperfections in the gospel of Jesus Christ which is only found in this church. Our doctrine is never contrary to the Bible no matter how you try to twist the Bible. Protestants don't believe the Bible nor do nondenominationalists, Catholics, etc.

The Bible was in existence eons before the Book of Mormon, Pearl of great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. You statement should be, “Whenever the LDS Church says anything contrary to the Bible. Your anti Bible at***ude always causes you to degrade the Bible from its position of the first and only book of the Christian faith. You have done so to your own detriment because the authority of the only true book of the Christian faith has been usurped by the vain imaginings of a mortal man who has gone on to his just reward, I am sure.

Your doctrine is completely contrary to the Bible. The Bible says only one God. The LDS say multiple gods. That is different. The Bible says not of works. The LDS say works. That is not the only two, but enough to point out that the Bible does not agree with the LDS. It is the LDS that does not believe the Bible. Check Articles of Faith number 8!

I have studied the scriptures many times over and I know all of the doctrines agree with the Bible.
I don't deny Bible teachings, I deny your interpretation of scriptures. You aren't of the royal priesthood because you're not in the fold of the Lamb.

All that you have studied is LDS and have ignored the Bible. The only thing that you don’t deny is the LDS.

You do deny the Bible because you deny the clearly stated Bible in favour of the contradictions promulgated by the LDS.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by childofgod

I deny your beliefs, not the Bible. I've never come across anything in the church that the Bible doesn't support, including the plurality of gods or that the Lord expects us to do certain things. I believe in the Bible and Protestants need to start doing the same for once.

Read this today found it interesting.

"The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show his might in behalf of those whose heart is blameless toward him." (2 Chronicles 16:9)

What is God looking for in the world? ***istants? No. The gospel is not a “help wanted” ad. Neither is the call to Christian service.
God is not looking for people to work for him. “The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show his might in behalf of those whose heart is blameless toward him” (2 Chronicles 16:9).

What does God want from us? Not what we might expect. He rebukes Israel for bringing him so many sacrifices: “I will accept no bull from your house. . . . For every beast of the forest is mine. . . . If I were hungry, I would not tell you; for the world and all that is in it is mine” (Psalm 50:9–12).
But isn’t there something we can give to God that won’t belittle him to the status of beneficiary?

Yes. Our anxieties.

It’s a command: “Cast all your anxieties on him” (1 Peter 5:7). God will gladly receive anything from us that shows our dependence and his all-sufficiency.
Christianity is fundamentally convalescence. Patients do not serve their physicians. They trust them for good prescriptions. The Sermon on the Mount is our Doctor’s medical advice, not our Employer’s *** description.

Our very lives hang on not working for God. “To one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Romans 4:4–5).

Workmen get no gifts. They get their due. If we would have the gift of justification, we dare not work. God is the workman in this affair. And what he gets is the glory of being the benefactor of grace, not the beneficiary of service.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The Bible concept of grace is totally different than the Mormon concept.

I don't think so, but I do think that the CALVINISTIC concept of grace IS, in fact a whole lot different.