Belive And Be Saved

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mormons are sent to hell due to all of them having Dead faith....(a faith without works is "Dead Faith")

Which is exactly the post and pillar of faith alone theology--"sola fide"--faith alone. The faith alone preach a salvation through a faith that is alone--without works:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Saxon]

I deny your beliefs, not the Bible. I've never come across anything in the church that the Bible doesn't support, including the plurality of gods or that the Lord expects us to do certain things. I believe in the Bible and Protestants need to start doing the same for once.

You are free to deny my beliefs if you wish. Your denial does not negate the truth of my beliefs whatsoever.

Yes, you have come across plenty that the Bible does not support.

PREMORTAL LIFE

LDS: Teach that everyone existed in heaven before born on earth. We have all existed eternally as ‘intellegences’ and were later born in heaven as spirit children of God and his wife. We later were born on earth as humans.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:21:

I dwell in the midst of them all; ... for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 352-4:

I have another subject to dwell upon... It is ***ociated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,--namely, the soul--the mind of man--the immortal spirit....All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation....The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself....I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man....The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end....There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal (co-eternal) with our Father in heaven. ...The first principles of man are self-existent with God.



BIBLE: Only Christ existed before mortality, not man. We did not have a spiritual existence prior to earth.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Colossians 1:17 And he [Christ] is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Zechariah 12:1 ...saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

VIRGIN BIRTH

LDS: Believe God is a resurrected, physical man. He is the literal Father of Jesus by the same manner in which men are conceived on earth.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 546-547:

ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

Christ is the Only Begotten ..., the Only Begotten Son ..., the Only Begotten of the Father. (Moses 5:9.) These name-***les all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 742:

SON OF GOD

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says.

(See also The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 6-7; Family Home Evenings Manual, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972, p. 125-126; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan Pub., 1992, p. 725, 729, 739, 740, 1670, 1671; Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115, vol. 11, p. 268; The Seer, p. 158.)



BIBLE: There is nothing in the Bible to indicate a physical relationship between God and Mary. Jesus’ conception is declared to be a miracle.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:30-35 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary...thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS....Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Bible does not agree with LDS on any of the following topics either:

GODHEAD
JESUS CHRIST
THE FALL
SIN
FORGIVENESS
SALVATION BY GRACE
REDEEMED
GOSPEL
BORN AGAIN
TRUE CHURCH
AUTHORITY - PRIESTHOOD
BAPTISM
SONS OF GOD
ETERNAL LIFE
IMMORTALITY
HELL
HEAVEN
KINGDOM OF GOD

[Saxon]

I am far far from being a Calvinist, if that is what you are implying.

[Saxon]

Which means you believing the trinity doesn't necessarily make the trinity true doctrine, right? I believe what the scriptures say; the problem is you ***ume you know our beliefs. For starters, we don't believe God and Mary had a physical relationship. Reread what McConkie said about the birth of the Savior. He said Jesus was CONCEIVED and BORN in a normal way. What is the normal way to be conceived? Fertilization. Does that mean Elder McConkie spoke of sexual activity? No. For example, a woman can be impregnated by artificial insemination which requires no sexual activity between the two parties. Do we know exactly how Jesus was conceived? No. The scriptures do not say.

Me believing the Trinity does not make it true. The fact that the Trinity is from the Bible makes it true. I don’t think that you know what the scriptures (Bible) say and you don’t believe them.

The normal way conception occurs is by sexual activity. What planet are you from? Artificial insemination is not the NORMAL way of conception.

The scriptures do say try, see Luke 1:34 and 35. This is yet another demonstration of your Bible knowledge.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

As to the birth, he certainly was born the same way you and I were. Jesus came out of the womb of Mary. Did you think Mary spat Him out of her mouth or something? Every Christian would be wise to agree that Jesus was born like anyone else or shall look foolish.

Now you are being dumb!

The Bible testifies of our existence before earth just as it testifies to every single doctrine The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints because this is the same church Jesus set up in the New Testament. Christians believe the church started in NT times, this idea is false. The church is the body of believers. There have been bodies of believers since Adam and Eve thus the church of Jesus Christ was started in Adam's day.

That is no in the Bible. That is coming from your extra Biblical books that contradict the Bible.

I believe that Adam and Eve will be among the saved and many from the Old Testament will be in the Kingdom.

You quote the Bible but then again, I've been able to do that since I was 4 so you're on the same level as I was when I was 4 years old. Memorizing is great, understanding is better. There is no one outside the Church that believes the Bible and what it teaches. If so, everyone would be running toward the waters of baptism by those who hold the priesthy.

But you don’t believe it so what difference does that make? There is no one in the LDS that believe the Bible because when they do they exit as fast as they can. Mormon priesthood is not if any Bible authority because the Aaronic priesthood is gone and the Melchizedek priesthood belongs only to Jesus. More of your Bible knowledge? You really don’t know what you are talking about.

[Saxon]

First, you need to stop insulting others. "Now you are being dumb." This forum specifically forbids something like this.

I do apologize for the perceived insult. I can ***ure you that there was none intended. I understand how things that are said/written can be misunderstood, but none the less I again apologize.

Second, I certainly do believe the Bible and know exactly what I'm talking about. As I said, you don't know what we believe. There is no Trinity doctrine in the Bible. I've heard all of the so-called references that supposedly "support" it but none of them do. The Bible is true, not trinitarian.

If you do believe the Bible and understand what you are talking about explain the following verses in light of LDS doctrine. I think that the only way that you have studied the Bible is by filtering it through the LDS doctrine.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

There is no term “Trinity” in the Bible, but the trinity is found in the Bible. LDS call it the Godhead. Mind you the LDS Godhead does not resemble the Bible Godhead or the term Trinity.

You are right, the Bible is true and it is not Trinitarian, but the Trinity concept is in the Bible.

Where do the scriptures say HOW Jesus was conceived? The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, everyone knows that. That's it. There's no info in the Bible or anywhere that expands on this.
I am talking about conception itself, not sexual activity. This takes place through fertilization. Whether it comes from sexual activity or artificial insemination, fertilization must take place for conception to happen.

VIRGIN BIRTH

LDS: Believe God is a resurrected, physical man. He is the literal Father of Jesus by the same manner in which men are conceived on earth.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 546-547:

ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

Christ is the Only Begotten ..., the Only Begotten Son ..., the Only Begotten of the Father. (Moses 5:9.) These name-***les all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 742:

SON OF GOD

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (You do try hard to even change the meaning of the LDS leadership. Either they were right or wrong. Mind you, I wouldn’t want to agree with them either.)

(See also The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 6-7; Family Home Evenings Manual, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972, p. 125-126; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan Pub., 1992, p. 725, 729, 739, 740, 1670, 1671; Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115, vol. 11, p. 268; The Seer, p. 158.)



BIBLE: There is nothing in the Bible to indicate a physical relationship between God and Mary. Jesus’ conception is declared to be a miracle.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:30-35 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary...thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS....Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Do you or do you not believe that a body of believers in Jesus Christ cons***utes the church of Jesus Christ? There have been believers since Adam's day as the Old Testament shows us. Jesus is the Messiah. The Jews ***embled and worshiped Jehovah the Messiah. Thus they made up the church of Jesus Christ in their day.
Your beliefs would not allow Adam and Eve to enter the kingdom of God. They didn't believe in the trinity, they believed in God.

I believe that THE body of believers, no matter what denomination, cons***utes the Church. You think that it is only LDS and no more.

I had stated, “I believe that Adam and Eve will be among the saved and many from the Old Testament will be in the Kingdom”, in my last post so that sort of shoots down your theory that my beliefs would not allow Adam and Eve to enter the kingdom of God. Where have I said that you have to believe the Trinity in order to gain salvation?

I don't believe the Bible according to who, you? Who made you the master of another's beliefs? Who said you get to decide what others believe and don't believe? I am LDS because the Holy Ghost has told me the church is true. My knowledge of the Bible is very extensive; I simply don't believe in Bible bashing, something you so desperately want me to do. Contention, something you try to cause, is of Satan. I do not aim to be contentious but to preach the gospel in Spirit and truth. Those who accept the gospel shall inherit the eternities for their reward and those who reject shall face the just judgments of God.

You don’t believe the bible because when the Bible says that there is only one God you say more. You don’t believe the Bible because when it says salvation is a gift, not of works, you say that there has to be works. You don’t believe the Bible.

You have been telling me what you believe, I don’t need to decide anything.

What is your definition of “Bible bashing”?

I have not caused contention, Joseph Smith did that years ago, all I do is point out the differences in LDS teaching from the Bible teachings. I do not agree with your LDS gospel because it differs from the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Mormon priesthood is not if any Bible authority because the Aaronic priesthood is gone and the Melchizedek priesthood belongs only to Jesus. More of your Bible knowledge? You really don’t know what you are talking about.

How can an everlasting priesthood be gone?

Exodus 40:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Could you explain to us what your evidence is this was not the Melchizedek priesthood?


Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

How can an everlasting priesthood be gone?

An everlasting priesthood is gone, as it is now not in use. The priesthood is still available to the decedents of Arron and will be functioning when the third temple is built in Jerusalem. The only problem is that you don’t know who has the everlasting priesthood. I isn’t the LDS either.

Exodus 40:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Could you explain to us what your evidence is this was not the Melchizedek priesthood?

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Your own quote proves that it was the Aaronic Priesthood that was being mentioned. It was an everlasting priesthood to Arron and his decedents. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the priesthood.

There was no anointing of Melchizedek. There is only one Melchizedek priest and that is Jesus. See Hebrews where it states that it is an unchangeable priesthood, meaning it is not transferrable because Jesus never dies again and he is the holder of the Melchizedek priesthood.

Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 is saying all believers are a royal priesthood and Revelation 1:5 and 6 is written to and about the saved. The royal priesthood is the only priesthood that Christians hold.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

An everlasting priesthood is gone, as it is now not in use. The priesthood is still available to the decedents of Arron and will be functioning when the third temple is built in Jerusalem. The only problem is that you don’t know who has the everlasting priesthood. I isn’t the LDS either.

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Your own quote proves that it was the Aaronic Priesthood that was being mentioned. It was an everlasting priesthood to Arron and his decedents. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the priesthood.

There was no anointing of Melchizedek. There is only one Melchizedek priest and that is Jesus. See Hebrews where it states that it is an unchangeable priesthood, meaning it is not transferrable because Jesus never dies again and he is the holder of the Melchizedek priesthood.

Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

1 Peter 2:9 is saying all believers are a royal priesthood and Revelation 1:5 and 6 is written to and about the saved. The royal priesthood is the only priesthood that Christians hold.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

Welcome to the NT--where the Gentiles are made partakers of the covenant and the priesthood--and the seed of Abraham.

Just a note here, Saxon.

Peter was quoting the OT in 1 Peter 2:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the OT priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

Leave it to you to get it backwards. Moses prophesied in Exodus 19:5-6 and it was fulfilled in the Church era. Note that Moses said “ye shall” and Peter said “ye are”. Moses was looking to a future event and Peter saw that event.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Welcome to the NT--where the Gentiles are made partakers of the covenant and the priesthood--and the seed of Abraham.

Just a note here, Saxon.

Peter was quoting the OT in 1 Peter 2:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the OT priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Leave it to you to get it backwards. Moses prophesied in Exodus 19:5-6 and it was fulfilled in the Church era. Note that Moses said “ye shall” and Peter said “ye are”. Moses was looking to a future event and Peter saw that event.

Exodus19:5-6 was not Moses prophesying--it was the Lord speaking unto Moses:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Please do notice two things here:

1) That obedience to the covenant was the condition

2) That it was a promise to "ye"--those of the OT. Present tense.

What other priesthood, other than the Aaronic--or the Melchizedek--was present in the OT?

[Saxon]

Sorry, God was prophesying. it changes nothing.

You have to be in the covenant in order to keep it. Still changes nothing.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

----Just a note here, Saxon.

Peter was quoting the OT in 1 Peter 2:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the OT priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Leave it to you to get it backwards. Moses prophesied in Exodus 19:5-6 and it was fulfilled in the Church era. Note that Moses said “ye shall” and Peter said “ye are”. Moses was looking to a future event and Peter saw that event.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Exodus19:5-6 was not Moses prophesying--it was the Lord speaking unto Moses:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Please do notice two things here:

1) That obedience to the covenant was the condition

2) That it was a promise to "ye"--those of the OT. Present tense.

What other priesthood, other than the Aaronic--or the Melchizedek--was present in the OT?

Originally Posted by Saxon

Sorry, God was prophesying. it changes nothing.

You have to be in the covenant in order to keep it. Still changes nothing.

If Peter was quoting Exodus 19:5-6 in 1Peter2---then it had to be a reference to one of the two priesthoods found in the Biblical OT.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

If Peter was quoting Exodus 19:5-6 in 1Peter2---then it had to be a reference to one of the two priesthoods found in the Biblical OT.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Why?? We know that the Aaronic priesthood was an everlasting priesthood that was to be p***ed down to Aaron and his sons so that is not it. That belongs to only those that are direct descendants of Aaron, no one else. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the Aaronic priesthood.

The Melchisedec Priesthood only has one priest and that is Jesus. Hebrews 7:3 to 25 tell us that there was only on priest of that order and Jesus is that priest. Verses 23 and 24 explains that there is no need of any more priests of the Melchisedec Priesthood because the current holder has a non-ending life and there is no reason to have any more.

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take ***hes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hebrews 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received ***hes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Hebrews 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive ***hes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.
Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If Peter was quoting Exodus 19:5-6 in 1Peter2---then it had to be a reference to one of the two priesthoods found in the Biblical OT.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Why?? We know that the Aaronic priesthood was an everlasting priesthood that was to be p***ed down to Aaron and his sons so that is not it. That belongs to only those that are direct descendants of Aaron, no one else. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the Aaronic priesthood.

The Melchisedec Priesthood only has one priest and that is Jesus. Hebrews 7:3 to 25 tell us that there was only on priest of that order and Jesus is that priest. Verses 23 and 24 explains that there is no need of any more priests of the Melchisedec Priesthood because the current holder has a non-ending life and there is no reason to have any more.

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take ***hes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hebrews 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received ***hes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Hebrews 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive ***hes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.
Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Just a couple of points:

1) The Mechizedek priesthood did not come through the tribe of Levi.

2) The new covenant of the NT expanded the covenant to include all of mankind--Gentiles included. As the Exodus verse states--it was a kingdom of priests:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

That seems more expansive than just a single tribe. These are the very verses (Exodus19:5-6)Peter referred to in 1Peter2.

[Saxon]

Just a couple of points:

1) The Mechizedek priesthood did not come through the tribe of Levi.

I never said it did. That is why there were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants and the other for the one priest of the order of Melchisedec. Mormons have no right to either priesthood because Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec and the Aaronic is for blood descendants of Aaron. There may be some descendants of Aaron caught up in the LDS but it would be only those few that would be qualified by birth, but there is no real function of the Aaronic priesthood in the LDS.

2) The new covenant of the NT expanded the covenant to include all of mankind--Gentiles included. As the Exodus verse states--it was a kingdom of priests:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers

That seems more expansive than just a single tribe. These are the very verses (Exodus19:5-6)Peter referred to in 1Peter2

.

He is referring to the royal priesthood, the only New Testament priesthood named for Christian New Testament believers. Are you going to ignore what the text says?

[Saxon]

Are there still Levites in the world? Yes and it is available to them at any time. The ten commandments is a brief outline to the more than 3,000 commandments in the law of Moses. The Aaronic priesthood has nothing to do with the Melchisedec Priesthood, apples and oranges. See Hebrews 7:3 to 25. If you insist on arguing with a Bible believer you should get to know what it says even if you don't believe it. Read it without the LDS filter. It is much different that what you think it is.

[Saxon]

You failed to give a reference to that none-event. Book chapter and verse.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I never said it did. That is why there were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants and the other for the one priest of the order of Melchisedec. Mormons have no right to either priesthood because Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec and the Aaronic is for blood descendants of Aaron. There may be some descendants of Aaron caught up in the LDS but it would be only those few that would be qualified by birth, but there is no real function of the Aaronic priesthood in the LDS.

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers

He is referring to the royal priesthood, the only New Testament priesthood named for Christian New Testament believers. Are you going to ignore what the text says?

Again--what is your evidence this is not the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

[Saxon]

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers.

There were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants. Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec. You show me from the Bible that it "taint so".

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers.

There were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants. Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec. You show me from the Bible that it "taint so".

Whenever you show me this was not the Melchizedek priesthood:

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

[Saxon]

I'm not arguing and I certainly am not speaking with someone who knows a good deal of what the Bible teaches.
You fail to remember that Paul ordained Timotheous and ***us to the Aaronic Priesthood

2nd Timothy 4 and ***us 3. Very end of both chapters there's a commentary by the writer of these two epistles.

Timothy’s father was Greek, so Timothy did not descend from Aaron. Only the sons of Aaron could be holders of the Aaronic priesthood. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin and was not a descendant of Aaron so he could not ordain anyone to the Aaronic priesthood. Paul told Timothy to do the work of an evangelist, not a priest of the order of Aaron. (See 2 Timothy4:5)

***us was a Greek. (See Galatians 2:3) ***us did not descend from Aaron. Only the sons of Aaron could be holders of the Aaronic priesthood. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin and was not a descendant of Aaron so he could not ordain anyone to the Aaronic priesthood.

There is nothing in 2 Timothy or ***us that even suggests that there is anything even hinting at the Aaronic priesthood. Like I said book, chapter and verse plus some reason for your statement.

2 Timothy4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Galatians 2:3 But neither ***us, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

[Saxon]

Whenever you show me this was not the Melchizedek priesthood:

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

Read Hebrews 7, the whole chapter. Read it as it is written and don’t let your mind wonder off what the text says. You will find that there is only one priest that is of the order of Melchisedec. The king of Salem is the King of peace. Jesus before his becoming a man was the holder of the Melchisedec priesthood and after his resurrection he became again the only priest of the Melchisedec priesthood and it is unchangeable, not transferable because of a an endless life.

The Melchisedec priesthood is singular KING and singular PRIEST, only one. The royal priesthood is more than one as it is held by every Christian believer. We, as believers, the saved (See Revelation 1:5) are kings and priests. (See Revelation 1:6) Peter called the believers the royal priesthood.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View PostThe New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers.

There were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants. Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec. You show me from the Bible that it "taint so".

Whenever you show me this was not the Melchizedek priesthood:

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

Anyone?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

As the CONTEXT of that verse shows (You might READ the text that precedes and follows that sentence some day) that is in THE EYES OF MAN, NOT IN THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART. The only way 'a man' (according to the TEXT of that p***age) can know your faith is by how you behave (your works).

Perhaps you should take a 'Reading with understanding' course. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Originally Posted by Christian

As the CONTEXT of that verse shows (You might READ the text that precedes and follows that sentence some day) that is in THE EYES OF MAN, NOT IN THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART.

The context is faith--and what the components of faith are.

IOW--faith without works is dead faith.

That defies faith alone theology--so I understand your interest in defraying what the scriptures indicate.

In accordance with that verse of scripture(James2:26)--it has the faith alone theology preaching salvation through a dead faith.(IE--a salvation through a faith without works)

How does that compare to Christ's testimony?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.