The Redeemer

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't see anyone arguing that works saves--only that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello DB,

Ok, then who are those that will obey Him. The scriptures tell us, (not my theology but God's word) that before we are born again we are enemies of God(Rom 5:10)
(Col 1:21) and we do not seek Him(Rom 3:11). Also the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost.(1 cor. 1:18). So who will obey or seek without first receiving unmerited grace?

Hi Disciple. Thanks for a good and honest post.

First--let me start by pointing out that all mankind have received of His grace--as an opportunity to inherit life--by Jesus Christ's Atoning for the sins of the whole world--and redeeming all of mankind from the automatic consequences of the Fall--death and hell, as an automatic consequence:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"Came upon all men"--past tense. IOW--all men are born free of the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall, as a result of the Atonement. We are now judged according to our own works--and not the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall, and the Atonement provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life--which was not there until the Atonement.

That is referred to as the Redemption--where all men were Redeemed from the automatic condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--and we now answer for own actions.

There is a difference between an opportunity and a personal reception.

For instance--a college represents an opportunity to be educated--but the diploma only goes to them that obey the criteria set by the college.

The same for the Atonement--it provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life, through absolvement of the condemnation from the Fall for all men--but the actual reception of life only comes to those who obey the conditions of the Redeemer--Jesus Christ.

The Redeemer's conditions are that men obey and follow Him--and if they do--they will receive of His grace unto the actual personal reception of His grace, IE--

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

This obedience of repenting, water baptism for the remission of sins--and walking in His light--is referred to as "faith in Christ".

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple. Thanks for a good and honest post.

First--let me start by pointing out that all mankind have received of His grace--as an opportunity to inherit life--by Jesus Christ's Atoning for the sins of the whole world--and redeeming all of mankind from the automatic consequences of the Fall--death and hell, as an automatic consequence:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"Came upon all men"--past tense. IOW--all men are born free of the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall, as a result of the Atonement. We are now judged according to our own works--and not the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall, and the Atonement provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life--which was not there until the Atonement.

That is referred to as the Redemption--where all men were Redeemed from the automatic condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--and we now answer for own actions.

There is a difference between an opportunity and a personal reception.

For instance--a college represents an opportunity to be educated--but the diploma only goes to them that obey the criteria set by the college.

The same for the Atonement--it provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life, through absolvement of the condemnation from the Fall for all men--but the actual reception of life only comes to those who obey the conditions of the Redeemer--Jesus Christ.

The Redeemer's conditions are that men obey and follow Him--and if they do--they will receive of His grace unto the actual personal reception of His grace, IE--

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

This obedience of repenting, water baptism for the remission of sins--and walking in His light--is referred to as "faith in Christ".

Hi DB,
“Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.” I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 5:18, we are not born free from the condemnation of sin. There is one action and one result. The one action is Christ’s death on the cross with the one result of a right standing before God and the life that comes with it. Jesus took the imputation of our sins on the cross and brought eternal life to all. The second “all men” does not refer to every member of the human race. Here it means all believing men. “Life” here is eternal life. Eternal life comes from the One who has eternal life.
Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned” Acts 17:26 “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth” because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin. It occurred two ways. First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship. Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. Romans 5:18-19 says, "through one man's tresp***, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners." We are all born with a built-in sin nature, because we have inherited this sin nature from Adam we are already born spiritually dead (separated from God) and die physically. 1 Cor. 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ. Later, God brought the law for us to see our sin measured by his standard. Gal 3:19 “Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,.., until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.” Rom. 5:20-21 “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature, we are not interested in obedience or works. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature. The Psalmist says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies. *** 15:14"What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? *** 25:4 How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman? We don't just make up our mind to sin or make a mistake and go from being perfect to being sinful. Eph. 2:3 “and were by nature the children of wrath”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi DB,
“Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.” I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 5:18, we are not born free from the condemnation of sin.

Hi Disciple.

Then what would save little babies from hell if they died as an infant?

The one action is Christ’s death on the cross with the one result of a right standing before God and the life that comes with it. Jesus took the imputation of our sins on the cross and brought eternal life to all. The second “all men” does not refer to every member of the human race. Here it means all believing men.

That does not make sense. If "Jesus took the imputation of our sins on the cross and brought eternal life to all."--then all sins were Atoned for--in this context:

John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If "all men" included every member of the human race in the first usage--then it also set the context for the second one:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I have noticed whenever the scriptures defy the faith alone theology--they begin making up their own theology--but the scriptures are plain that Christ died for all of mankind:


1 Timothy 2:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 2:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Peter 4:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Please do collate 1Cor5:14-15 with Romans5:18--all were dead due to the Fall--all are alive in Christ due to the Atonement.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple.

Then what would save little babies from hell if they died as an infant?



That does not make sense. If "Jesus took the imputation of our sins on the cross and brought eternal life to all."--then all sins were Atoned for--in this context:

John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If "all men" included every member of the human race in the first usage--then it also set the context for the second one:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I have noticed whenever the scriptures defy the faith alone theology--they begin making up their own theology--but the scriptures are plain that Christ died for all of mankind:


1 Timothy 2:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 2:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Peter 4:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Please do collate 1Cor5:14-15 with Romans5:18--all were dead due to the Fall--all are alive in Christ due to the Atonement.

Hello DB,

The death and resurrection of Jesus was and is sufficient to pay for the sins of all mankind, every sin past, present and future. But we are not born free from sin and each man when he hears the good news of the Gospel will believe and trust to eternal life or he won't believe and die in his sins. Jesus said we must be born again, salvation is a free gift offered to all men but it is not automatic it must be received. John 1:12 says "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name". As far as what happens to babies or young children if they die, I would say that if anyone is perfectly fair and just it is God, He will always do what is right.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple.

Then what would save little babies from hell if they died as an infant?

That does not make sense. If "Jesus took the imputation of our sins on the cross and brought eternal life to all."--then all sins were Atoned for--in this context:

John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If "all men" included every member of the human race in the first usage--then it also set the context for the second one:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I have noticed whenever the scriptures defy the faith alone theology--they begin making up their own theology--but the scriptures are plain that Christ died for all of mankind:


1 Timothy 2:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 2:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Peter 4:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Please do collate 1Cor5:14-15 with Romans5:18--all were dead due to the Fall--all are alive in Christ due to the Atonement.

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello DB,

The death and resurrection of Jesus was and is sufficient to pay for the sins of all mankind, every sin past, present and future.

Hi Disciple:

It not only "is"--it was:

John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That's all of mankind.

But we are not born free from sin

Again--if infants are born with sin--then what saves them from hell if they die as infants?

and each man when he hears the good news of the Gospel will believe and trust to eternal life or he won't believe and die in his sins. Jesus said we must be born again, salvation is a free gift offered to all men but it is not automatic it must be received.

God died for the sins of the whole world--all mankind--whether they receive it or not. It was Him alone--not Him plus your faith. It the Atonement involved your faith or mine--it would have failed.

God died for all of mankind in order to conquer death and hell for all men--as an automatic consequence of the Fall--as the scriptures state:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

That was a "free gift" to all men--all of mankind--whether they accept it or not. You have it if you accept it--you have it if you don't. Free. Christ alone. He nailed it to the cross--finished. And it "came upon" all men when He finished it--not when you or I add faith to it:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"Came upon"--past tense.

Just as a college is a free gift to all present for an opportunity to be educated--whether they take advantage of it or not--it's still a free gift to all present. But the diploma only goes to them who obey the criteria of the college.

The Atonement was a free gift to all men--as an opportunity--as it conquered death and hell for all men--as an automatic consequence of the Fall.

Now--we answer for our own actions--and not the condemnation of all men due to the Fall:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

John 1:12 says "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name".

But that is the reception of eternal life--not just the opportunity.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hi Disciple.

Then what would save little babies from hell if they died as an infant?

That does not make sense. If "Jesus took the imputation of our sins on the cross and brought eternal life to all."--then all sins were Atoned for--in this context:

John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If "all men" included every member of the human race in the first usage--then it also set the context for the second one:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I have noticed whenever the scriptures defy the faith alone theology--they begin making up their own theology--but the scriptures are plain that Christ died for all of mankind:


1 Timothy 2:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 2:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Peter 4:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Please do collate 1Cor5:14-15 with Romans5:18--all were dead due to the Fall--all are alive in Christ due to the Atonement.

Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
Hello DB,

The death and resurrection of Jesus was and is sufficient to pay for the sins of all mankind, every sin past, present and future.

Hi Disciple:

It not only "is"--it was:

John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That's all of mankind.

But we are not born free from sin

Again--if infants are born with sin--then what saves them from hell if they die as infants?

and each man when he hears the good news of the Gospel will believe and trust to eternal life or he won't believe and die in his sins. Jesus said we must be born again, salvation is a free gift offered to all men but it is not automatic it must be received.

God died for the sins of the whole world--all mankind--whether they receive it or not. It was Him alone--not Him plus your faith. It the Atonement involved your faith or mine--it would have failed.

God died for all of mankind in order to conquer death and hell for all men--as an automatic consequence of the Fall--as the scriptures state:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

That was a "free gift" to all men--all of mankind--whether they accept it or not. You have it if you accept it--you have it if you don't. Free. Christ alone. He nailed it to the cross--finished. And it "came upon" all men when He finished it--not when you or I add faith to it:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"Came upon"--past tense.

Just as a college is a free gift to all present for an opportunity to be educated--whether they take advantage of it or not--it's still a free gift to all present. But the diploma only goes to them who obey the criteria of the college.

The Atonement was a free gift to all men--as an opportunity--as it conquered death and hell for all men--as an automatic consequence of the Fall.

Now--we answer for our own actions--and not the condemnation of all men due to the Fall:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

John 1:12 says "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name".

But that is the reception of eternal life--not just the opportunity.

Bump for anyone