WHO do you have faith in?

[Christian]

Jesus Christ? Or YOURSELF to 'do enough' good works?

I'll stick with Jesus, my good works come from HIS HOLY SPIRIT, not from myself.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

Jesus Christ? Or YOURSELF to 'do enough' good works?

We have faith in Jesus Christ. How did you not know that?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

We have faith in Jesus Christ. How did you not know that?

And WHICH jesus christ would that be? Joseph smith's INVENTED jesus? Or the REAL BIBLICAL ONE that is NOT a spirit brother of satan?

Yes, I think I DO know which one the mormons follow. Their posts and literature TELL US.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

And WHICH jesus christ would that be?

How many Jesus Christs do you think there are?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

How many Jesus Christs do you think there are?

I don't know. But I DO know the REAL Jesus Christ told us:

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV

Isn't it INTERESTING that that 'all things' that Jesus told us DIDN'T INCLUDE any of your 'mormon specific' trash?

Are YOU following one of those false christs and false prophets?

I suspect so.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

I don't know.

Interesting. Well, we believe there's only one, and you can read about him in the Bible. That's who we believe in.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Interesting. Well, we believe there's only one, and you can read about him in the Bible. That's who we believe in.

So you DON'T believe the REAL JESUS when He said (IN THE BIBLE):

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV

How can you claim to believe the REAL Jesus if you don't believe what HE SAYS?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

So you DON'T believe the REAL JESUS when He said (IN THE BIBLE):

Of course we do.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Originally Posted by ChristianSo you DON'T believe the REAL JESUS when He said (IN THE BIBLE):

Of course we do.

Then why don't you believe what He SAID when He SAID:

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV
????

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

Then why don't you believe what He SAID when He SAID:

Your question ***umes a false premise.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Your question ***umes a false premise.

You indicated you don't believe that false christs exist. I demonstrated that Jesus CREATED the Angels (John 1:1-3) and that satan is NOT as your false prophet claimed, a 'spirit brother' of Jesus, but is instead a CREATION BY Jesus.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

You indicated you don't believe that false christs exist.

Where did I indicate that?

I demonstrated that Jesus CREATED the Angels (John 1:1-3) and that satan is NOT as your false prophet claimed, a 'spirit brother' of Jesus, but is instead a CREATION BY Jesus.

No you ***erted it.

Neither one of those was the false premise your question ***umed.

[Christian]

erunder posted:

I demonstrated that Jesus CREATED the Angels (John 1:1-3) and that satan is NOT as your false prophet claimed, a 'spirit brother' of Jesus, but is instead a CREATION BY Jesus.

No you ***erted it.

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV


Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that. THIS SCRiPTURE sas that Jesus was there IN THE BEGINNING with the Father. NOT just one of a gazillion 'spirit babies' or related in any way OTHER THAN CREATOR to your demons including satan.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

If you are happy with false gods and false christs and false prophets, you are on your own. . .

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV

Which does not say "Jesus CREATED the angels."

Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

No, that is your interpretation of the text.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that.

I know. It's the anti-Mormons who teach that.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

As a Christian, I disagree with you that Jesus Christ is a false Christ and a fictional character.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

Like Erundur, I want to see the verse that clearly says "Jesus (not His Father) created the angels."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

erunder posted:


No you ***erted it.

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV


Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that. THIS SCRiPTURE sas that Jesus was there IN THE BEGINNING with the Father. NOT just one of a gazillion 'spirit babies' or related in any way OTHER THAN CREATOR to your demons including satan.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

If you are happy with false gods and false christs and false prophets, you are on your own. . .

This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"



case-closed....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is correct..

I would like to see more evidence that it's correct, than just your belief.

Angels are "things"...

If so, then the Persons of the Trinity are things as well.
If you're not going to agree with realities such as the definition of a noun (a person OR a place OR a thing)and the obvious implication that there can be a difference between a person and a thing, then you must take as your position the belief that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are things, not people, not persons...just things, in the same category as a rock or a chair or the solar system.

The problem this will cause you will become apparent in about 5 seconds.

Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

Then you believe that Jesus Christ created God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


case-closed...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

case-closed....

Could we reopen that case with this question?

Who was this Angel--and is He a thing?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[alanmolstad]

God is not a "thing"

Things are creations of God...

All things are created by God....
Christ is God...
Christ is the creator...

Christ created all things.

Angels are one of the things that God created.
Christ is the creator that made all things, and therefore, Jesus made all the angels....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could we reopen that case with this question?

Who was this Angel--and is He a thing?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

I believe he may be referring to Genesis 31 :11

From the text and the story we do see that he had dreams of angels..It also says he saw a few angels at 32:1...
And then there also is the story of the time he got into a fight all night long with a man...

from this we can understand that many angels were sent into his life to carry out the instructions of the Creator.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe he may be referring to Genesis 31 :11

From the text and the story we do see that he had dreams of angels..It also says he saw a few angels at 32:1...
And then there also is the story of the time he got into a fight all night long with a man...

from this we can understand that many angels were sent into his life to carry out the instructions of the Creator.

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

case-closed....

Again--is this Angel a "thing"?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

You do realize that is a reference to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":



Again--is this Angel a "thing"?
.

The cl***ic biblical use of the term, to be describing a created heavenly creature (both the good angels, and the bad angels) are created things...
They are "creatures"...
They are things that came into being by the creative work of God.

The Bible tells us that it was Jesus Christ that made "all things"...and that without him nothing was made that was ever made.

Notice the Bible tells us that Christ made "all things"
It does not say that Christ made all "other" things...

For if Christ was a creation of God, then he would be just one of the many things that god made...
He would be a creature...and as such the Bible would be in error telling us that Christ made "all things". for it should have said that Christ made "all other things'.

So the moment I read that Christ made "all things" I take this to mean that Christ is not a "thing"
He cant be a thing.
For me made "all things"

Now the term 'angel" can be used in all kinds of different contexts, and this would of course change the meanings...an example would be that a dog that leads a search party to a lost child might be called the child's "angel" by the family of the child.

Or you could even term inanimate objects as also being "angels", as I once was reading a story of a giant meteor that hits the earth being called "The Angel Of Death"

So as with all things, you have to always keep in mind the full context of how a word is used....because you dont want to get mixed up and think that a dog or a big rock that might be called an "Angel" must therefore always mean that such things are messengers from heaven...



Now in the verse we are dealing with and the use of the term "Angel" by the person of Israel, we have a very good understanding from the text that at several times inhis life he did receive special 'visitations' that could be accounts of the cl***ic heavenly "angels"

[Phoenix]

I don't think "things" is the correct term to use to describe living, sentient beings.

People are not things. Rocks, trees, mountains, rivers, and the roller coaster at Disneyland are things.

[alanmolstad]

We are things...we are made.
We are created.

God is not a thing.
Only God was never created

[Phoenix]

I am unaware of the definition of "thing" as "what is created."

My teachers taught me that a noun is a person or a place or a thing. Logically, then, people and things are not the same.