WHO do you have faith in?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's a strange statement. Jesus Christ founded His church on living, mortal apostles and prophets--who were men. The Chief Corner Stone is also:

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Care to explain that one?

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Your cult CLAIMS the foundation (the beginning) of the church must be mortally alive and present here on earth today, BUT the Chief Cornerstone of CHRISTIANITY (JESUS CHRIST) is IGNORED in that requirement.

Is that because you cannot have a popularity contest election and 'elect' someone to BE your version of your 'jesus?'

You can have pretend 'apostles,' just as the other 150 or so SMITH religions each do, but pretend doesn't work with God. JESUS had nothing to do with your manmade 'apostles.'

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's a strange statement. Jesus Christ founded His church on living, mortal apostles and prophets--who were men. The Chief Corner Stone is also:

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Care to explain that one?

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Originally Posted by Christian

Your cult CLAIMS the foundation (the beginning) of the church must be mortally alive and present here on earth today, BUT the Chief Cornerstone of CHRISTIANITY (JESUS CHRIST) is IGNORED in that requirement.

Just a note, Christian--Jesus Christ was not a mortal when Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians--but apostles were. The living, mortal apostles formed the foundation of Christ's church from it's inception--and carried throughout the NT history found in the NT.

The LDS church still has that foundation.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just a note, Christian--Jesus Christ was not a mortal when Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians--but apostles were. The living, mortal apostles formed the foundation of Christ's church from it's inception--and carried throughout the NT history found in the NT.

The LDS church still has that foundation.

No they don't. All they have is joey smith and a bunch of wannabe 'prophets' who have ZERO connection to the originals or to God. Of course their wannabe 'prophets' can't prophesy, haven't been able to do so through their last 5 or more 'iterations,' nor for the last 75+ years now. They really AREN'T PROPHETS AT ALL, but are just 'wannabe's.'

We BIBLICAL Christians have the foundation of the REAL prophets and REAL Apostles in the WORD OF GOD, the BIBLE.

When Paul wrote the leter to the Ephesians he said NOTHING about 'mortal' anybody, BUT HE DID COUNT JESUS AS THE CORNERSTONE OF THE FOUNDATION; whatever the state of the foundation was, so was JESUS.

Joey smith couldn't read with understanding because the Bible was nonsense to him.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

GOD said it. You don't like it? Go argue with GOD.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by theway

Funny comment... Considering you chose "Christian" as your screen name and not Y'shua???

I am just fine using the transliteration, but I won't pretend that the transliteration must be in my moniker just because 'THE NAME' makes it 'speshul.'

The comment that the words "jesus christ" appear in your church's name does not make IT 'speshul' either.

Baptist is no less authentic. Neither is CHRISTIAN.

[Christian]

erunder posted:

I demonstrated that Jesus CREATED the Angels (John 1:1-3) and that satan is NOT as your false prophet claimed, a 'spirit brother' of Jesus, but is instead a CREATION BY Jesus.

No you ***erted it.

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV


Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that. THIS SCRiPTURE sas that Jesus was there IN THE BEGINNING with the Father. NOT just one of a gazillion 'spirit babies' or related in any way OTHER THAN CREATOR to your demons including satan.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

If you are happy with false gods and false christs and false prophets, you are on your own. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just a note, Christian--Jesus Christ was not a mortal when Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians--but apostles were. The living, mortal apostles formed the foundation of Christ's church from it's inception--and carried throughout the NT history found in the NT.

The LDS church still has that foundation.

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#008000]No they don't.

Yes they do--here they are:



Boyd K. Packer
Elder L. Tom Perry
Elder Russell M. Nelson
Elder Dallin H. Oaks
Elder M. Russell Ballard
Elder Richard G. Scott
Elder Robert D. Hales
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
Elder David A. Bednar
Elder Quentin L. Cook
Elder D. Todd Christofferson
Elder Neil L. Andersen

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV

Which does not say "Jesus CREATED the angels."

Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

No, that is your interpretation of the text.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that.

I know. It's the anti-Mormons who teach that.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

As a Christian, I disagree with you that Jesus Christ is a false Christ and a fictional character.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

Like Erundur, I want to see the verse that clearly says "Jesus (not His Father) created the angels."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

No they don't. All they have is joey smith and a bunch of wannabe 'prophets' who have ZERO connection to the originals or to God. Of course their wannabe 'prophets' can't prophesy, haven't been able to do so through their last 5 or more 'iterations,' nor for the last 75+ years now. They really AREN'T PROPHETS AT ALL, but are just 'wannabe's.'

We BIBLICAL Christians have the foundation of the REAL prophets and REAL Apostles in the WORD OF GOD, the BIBLE.

When Paul wrote the leter to the Ephesians he said NOTHING about 'mortal' anybody, BUT HE DID COUNT JESUS AS THE CORNERSTONE OF THE FOUNDATION; whatever the state of the foundation was, so was JESUS.

Joey smith couldn't read with understanding because the Bible was nonsense to him.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

GOD said it. You don't like it? Go argue with GOD.

Amen to that!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

erunder posted:


No you ***erted it.

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV


Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that. THIS SCRiPTURE sas that Jesus was there IN THE BEGINNING with the Father. NOT just one of a gazillion 'spirit babies' or related in any way OTHER THAN CREATOR to your demons including satan.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

If you are happy with false gods and false christs and false prophets, you are on your own. . .

This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"



case-closed....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is correct..

I would like to see more evidence that it's correct, than just your belief.

Angels are "things"...

If so, then the Persons of the Trinity are things as well.
If you're not going to agree with realities such as the definition of a noun (a person OR a place OR a thing)and the obvious implication that there can be a difference between a person and a thing, then you must take as your position the belief that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are things, not people, not persons...just things, in the same category as a rock or a chair or the solar system.

The problem this will cause you will become apparent in about 5 seconds.

Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

Then you believe that Jesus Christ created God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


case-closed...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

case-closed....

Could we reopen that case with this question?

Who was this Angel--and is He a thing?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[alanmolstad]

God is not a "thing"

Things are creations of God...

All things are created by God....
Christ is God...
Christ is the creator...

Christ created all things.

Angels are one of the things that God created.
Christ is the creator that made all things, and therefore, Jesus made all the angels....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could we reopen that case with this question?

Who was this Angel--and is He a thing?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

I believe he may be referring to Genesis 31 :11

From the text and the story we do see that he had dreams of angels..It also says he saw a few angels at 32:1...
And then there also is the story of the time he got into a fight all night long with a man...

from this we can understand that many angels were sent into his life to carry out the instructions of the Creator.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe he may be referring to Genesis 31 :11

From the text and the story we do see that he had dreams of angels..It also says he saw a few angels at 32:1...
And then there also is the story of the time he got into a fight all night long with a man...

from this we can understand that many angels were sent into his life to carry out the instructions of the Creator.

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

case-closed....

Again--is this Angel a "thing"?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

You do realize that is a reference to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":



Again--is this Angel a "thing"?
.

The cl***ic biblical use of the term, to be describing a created heavenly creature (both the good angels, and the bad angels) are created things...
They are "creatures"...
They are things that came into being by the creative work of God.

The Bible tells us that it was Jesus Christ that made "all things"...and that without him nothing was made that was ever made.

Notice the Bible tells us that Christ made "all things"
It does not say that Christ made all "other" things...

For if Christ was a creation of God, then he would be just one of the many things that god made...
He would be a creature...and as such the Bible would be in error telling us that Christ made "all things". for it should have said that Christ made "all other things'.

So the moment I read that Christ made "all things" I take this to mean that Christ is not a "thing"
He cant be a thing.
For me made "all things"

Now the term 'angel" can be used in all kinds of different contexts, and this would of course change the meanings...an example would be that a dog that leads a search party to a lost child might be called the child's "angel" by the family of the child.

Or you could even term inanimate objects as also being "angels", as I once was reading a story of a giant meteor that hits the earth being called "The Angel Of Death"

So as with all things, you have to always keep in mind the full context of how a word is used....because you dont want to get mixed up and think that a dog or a big rock that might be called an "Angel" must therefore always mean that such things are messengers from heaven...



Now in the verse we are dealing with and the use of the term "Angel" by the person of Israel, we have a very good understanding from the text that at several times inhis life he did receive special 'visitations' that could be accounts of the cl***ic heavenly "angels"

[Phoenix]

I don't think "things" is the correct term to use to describe living, sentient beings.

People are not things. Rocks, trees, mountains, rivers, and the roller coaster at Disneyland are things.

[alanmolstad]

We are things...we are made.
We are created.

God is not a thing.
Only God was never created

[Phoenix]

I am unaware of the definition of "thing" as "what is created."

My teachers taught me that a noun is a person or a place or a thing. Logically, then, people and things are not the same.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I am unaware of the definition of "thing" as "what is created."

My teachers taught me that a noun is a person or a place or a thing. Logically, then, people and things are not the same.

"For by him were all THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all THINGS were created by him, and for him. (Colossians 1:16)

What invisible "things" in heaven were created for Him?.....the answer is - " thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers"

In other words....the "things" are the angels....they are invisible to our eyes, and live in heaven to serve the Lord.

[alanmolstad]

(so, I hate to be the guy to break the news to you but, you are a thing)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":

Again--is this Angel a "thing"?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

You do realize that is a reference to Christ?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The cl***ic biblical use of the term, to be describing a created heavenly creature (both the good angels, and the bad angels) are created things...
They are "creatures"...
They are things that came into being by the creative work of God.

Alan--if angels are things that are made--are you claiming Christ is a thing that was made? Again--this reference to "Angel"--is Christ Himself:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

The Bible tells us that it was Jesus Christ that made "all things"...and that without him nothing was made that was ever made.

The Bible testifies that spirits were Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

And they His offspring:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Notice the Bible tells us that Christ made "all things"
It does not say that Christ made all "other" things...

The scriptures state that Christ created all things that was made:
John 1:1-3---King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Obviously--there were creations that were not made by Christ--and spirits were one of those:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here Christ concedes that He was not the Father of spirits--but even Himself was Fathered by God the Father--and He shared the same Father as mankind.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Alan--Paul designated the "one God" as God the Father--and the "one Lord" as Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The scriptures testify that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--not Jesus Christ. Christ conceded that even His spirit was Fathered by God the Father--and He shared the same Father with mankind, in that respect.

[alanmolstad]

Im say that angels are created.
Im saying I am a thing.
Im saying all that is made is a thing and a creation of god.

And Im saying god is not a thing.
God created ALL things..both the things in heaven AND the things in the universe.

ALL THINGS!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im say that angels are created.

Then you are saying Christ was created:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then you are saying Christ was created:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

The body of Christ was created...

The person of Christ is eternal and had no beginning for he is the Lord God Almighty.

But the Body of Christ was formed inside the womb of his mother Mary.

This is why we say that Jesus has 2 natures.
He is both everlasting God almighty, and 100% human.
Not half god and half man, but fully God and fully man...